Rivalwide Progressive Issue - Rogue Poll.

[bonusgeek]

Hi Peter-Jan,

For each individual affiliate, the deductions will never be the same from month to month and all affiliates will see different deductions. This is determined by the amount wagered by their tagged players and the affiliate rev share %. The calculation for the way deductions are currently set in the Rival system is (affiliates tagged players progressive wagering * 5-7%(dependent on progressive games played) * % of Rev Share). 5-7% is the amount of each wager that is deducted from each bet to keep the pot constantly growing. Each of our four progressive games deducts a varying %.

From what I understand from Rival and our own casino management, this is a normal policy in the industry and Rival’s progressive system is identical to one of the other software “giants”. We have confirmed with a number of operators, some as I mentioned accredited on some very big forums, that have identical policies in place. Overall in the industry, it is not abnormal to see progressive deductions.

Regards,

Jaxon

Hi Jax, so would you be at liberty to tell us whether or not the entire 5-7% of these progressive contributions actually goes into the progressive jackpot pool or if there are kickbacks to the software itself.

I am trying to take the affiliate out of the equation for a minute and think about what happens when a player is not tagged to an affiliate. I have a hard time believing that the casinos themselves would agree to a policy where they could end up loser on a particular progressive player even though the player lost their entire bankroll. Yet this is what has been happening with affiliates this whole time. I might be wrong but I am guessing this isn't the way it works. My guess is there is a margin of profit built into this 5-7% number and this is what the casinos fall back on to fund the progressive pool in such a situation.

Regardless affiliates need to be out of the equation with progressive contributions completely. I don't see how you can use money to fund a progressive pool that isn't there. Meaning if a player deposits $100 and plays for weeks off this deposit on a progressive, then eventually that $100 is going to go into the progressive pool which means there is no more money to fund the pool. Yet Rival is pulling this money out of thin air and just decides to use genuinely earned affiliates commissions to do it? This is very infair. If they want the progressive pool to grow from fantasy money, let them use their own revenues to do it instead of ours.

Or they need to do it by coins in like someone else mentioned so affiliates can't go backwards on a player which negates genuinely earned commissions by us. The bottom line is something seriously wrong with a system where a player can lose their entire bankroll, yet the affiliate ends up loser on that player even though they didn't beat the house out of a single red cent.

 

[bonustreak]

Enough has been said my vote has changed! Rival itself needs to stop sneaking around and doing predatory stuff against affiliates I am sick of it. If this was a legit change they would have notified the operators(I am aware that operators were never even informed!) and the affiliates first of this change regarding the progressives. It is jacked up and I would have said go to hell of course but at least I had the chance to decide if I wanted to continue to promote certain casinos!

 

[JSM_Jaxon]

Hi Jax, so would you be at liberty to tell us whether or not the entire 5-7% of these progressive contributions actually goes into the progressive jackpot pool or if there are kickbacks to the software itself.

I am trying to take the affiliate out of the equation for a minute and think about what happens when a player is not tagged to an affiliate. I have a hard time believing that the casinos themselves would agree to a policy where they could end up loser on a particular progressive player even though the player lost their entire bankroll. Yet this is what has been happening with affiliates this whole time. I might be wrong but I am guessing this isn't the way it works. My guess is there is a margin of profit built into this 5-7% number and this is what the casinos fall back on to fund the progressive pool in such a situation.

Regardless affiliates need to be out of the equation with progressive contributions completely. I don't see how you can use money to fund a progressive pool that isn't there. Meaning if a player deposits $100 and plays for weeks off this deposit on a progressive, then eventually that $100 is going to go into the progressive pool which means there is no more money to fund the pool. Yet Rival is pulling this money out of thin air and just decides to use genuinely earned affiliates commissions to do it? This is very infair. If they want the progressive pool to grow from fantasy money, let them use their own revenues to do it instead of ours.

Or they need to do it by coins in like someone else mentioned so affiliates can't go backwards on a player which negates genuinely earned commissions by us. The bottom line is something seriously wrong with a system where a player can lose their entire bankroll, yet the affiliate ends up loser on that player even though they didn't beat the house out of a single red cent.

Bonusgeek,

I can only explain this as I understand it as I'm not the programmer or the person(s) that set up this progressive system.

The 5-7% goes entirely to the pool and of that 5-7% the casinos are being deducted as well. Affiliates have been getting deducted and casinos have been getting the same deductions, but at a higher percentage than affiliates based on the affiliates rev-share (35% you, 65% us). Casino revenue as based on the same equation as affiliates and that is ANW. The progressive pool is coming from the casino's revenue since we are being deducted the for the same wagers, but it is coming from all the casinos, not just one. If a player wins the jackpot at a given casino, that casino is responsible for the replenishment of the seed amount of that progressive jackpot.

This whole issue has brought up a lot of questions from our affiliates, but it has also raised some concerns for the casinos and operators too. As I have said in other post, I will have more information once a decision is made by Rival and its operators regarding the progressive system.

Jaxon

 

[bonusgeek]

Bonusgeek,

I can only explain this as I understand it as I'm not the programmer or the person(s) that set up this progressive system.

The 5-7% goes entirely to the pool and of that 5-7% the casinos are being deducted as well. Affiliates have been getting deducted and casinos have been getting the same deductions, but at a higher percentage than affiliates based on the affiliates rev-share (35% you, 65% us). Casino revenue as based on the same equation as affiliates and that is ANW. The progressive pool is coming from the casino's revenue since we are being deducted the for the same wagers, but it is coming from all the casinos, not just one. If a player wins the jackpot at a given casino, that casino is responsible for the replenishment of the seed amount of that progressive jackpot.

This whole issue has brought up a lot of questions from our affiliates, but it has also raised some concerns for the casinos and operators too. As I have said in other post, I will have more information once a decision is made by Rival and its operators regarding the progressive system.

Jaxon

Thanks for your reply Jax. It looks like affiliates and casinos are sort of in the same boat with this then. Hopefully when Rival revamps the progressive system, it will be something affiliates and casinos are both happy with.

 

[lots0]

I would like to hear from someone at Rival before I make any decisions about blacklisting them. (added - I am talking about blacklisting RIVAL and not about blacklisting 400, I think that 400 is in the same boat as the affs in this matter.)

I do know one thing thou, Rival NEEDS to do some explaining to all of us and more important Rival needs to fix this as soon as possible.

I do believe that any further inaction on this issue by Rival would be cause to blacklist them.

 

[dendrite]

Can anyone tell me what the best tell-tale signs are that you have been affected by this progressive policy?

Perhaps one of the AMs would know?

Something that I have noticed at Rivals is an increase in 'odd' cash-out values. By that I mean, not round numbers, for example, rather than players cashing out $500, or $950 etc. like they used to, I'm seeing lots of cash-out values like $514.57, or $951.13 etc.

I am mostly seeing this with my bigger players, which I guess are the players most likely to be playing the jackpot games

So, could these odd values actually be an indicator of progressive contribution deductions, rather than actual cash-outs?

Or, is there a different, simple way to tell how badly we have been affected?

 

[Vladi]

It could be just that they are playing in another currency which is being converted back to $ in your affiliate account.

 

[dendrite]

It could be just that they are playing in another currency which is being converted back to $ in your affiliate account.

All US players in my case.

Just trying to figure out how we can find out how much we have unknowingly lost. We should at least be able to find out what this policy has cost us - that way we can make an informed decision as to whether we wish to promote Rival casinos in the future...

Hopefully, one of the AMs will be able to tell us how we can get this data when we log in to our accounts

 

[dendrite]

Wael, from AffiliateWIDE has responded with regards to this issue and Box24 Casino

https:// www. affiliateguarddog. com/forums/box24-weekend-promotions-t2304.html

Hi dendrite

Sorry for taking sometime to get back to you.

Box24 Casino is not a White Label casino and our affiliate commission is based on wagering profit.

Thanks,
wael

 

[dominique]

Just got this:

Hi everyone,<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O></O>
<O> </O>
It’s been a long process, but Rival and the collective operators have come to a decision regarding the Progressive system and deductions. <O></O>
<O> </O>
All progressive wins that were not credited to affiliates will be calculated over March and credited as a lump sum to the April commission payments. Effective March 1<SUP>st</SUP>, 2010 for all Rival white-label properties, progressive deductions will now be carried forward in the case that an affiliate goes negative from the deduction. It is necessary to carry forward progressive deductions as it must be zero-sum to both the operator and affiliate to make sense.
<O> </O>
Also occurring on March 1st, all fraud charges and progressive deductions (as mentioned above) will carry forward if an affiliate becomes negative. Fraud charges include chargebacks and/or processor seizures.
<O> </O>
Detailed Description of Progressive System:

Affiliates will continue to have progressive contributions deducted and will continue to get credit for all progressive cash outs. Additionally, affiliates will receive credit for any progressive wagering losses once a player’s balance reaches 10% or less of the original jackpot win amount. Any progressive deductions will carry forward month on month if an account shall go negative. An affiliate will participate in the progressive deductions in the same way as an operator.

Example)

Player wins $25k jackpot
Seed is $4k
Affiliate contributes their % of each progressive wager for all cases

Case 1:
Player cashes out $25K
Affiliate is limited to having ANW reduced by an amount up to the seed amount so ANW is reduced by -4K

Case 2:
Player cashes out $22K and loses the remaining 3K
Affiliate gets ANW reduced by seed amount (4K) but then increased by 3K on payout completion (10% or below) for a net ANW of -1K

Case 3:
Player cashes out $10K and loses the remaining 15K
Affiliate gets ANW reduced by seed amount (4K) but then increased by 15K on payout completion (10% or below) for a net ANW of +11K

Case 4 :
Player loses the entire 25K
Affiliate gets ANW reduced by seed amount (4K) but then increased by 25K on payout completion (10% or below) for a net ANW of +21K

Case 5:
Player loses 10k of the 25K, he doesn't cash out
Affiliate does not have any ANW adjustment

Case 6:

Player loses 5k, cashes out 10k and has balance of $10k
Affiliate gets ANW reduced by seed amount (4k) but then increased by 10k for a net ANW of +6k
<O> </O>
Regards,
<O> </O>
Jaxon

Jet Set Marketing - Affiliate Manager
Paradise8.com :: Best Online Casino and Internet Slot Games
Cocoa Casino | Best Online Casino Games and Online Slots

 

[TheGamblingGuru]

Just got this:

Yep, just read that awhile ago in my email too Dom. What a crock of $hit that all is!

Changing the terms of all of our agreements retroactively like this...

Are we all going to just roll over and take this up the ole a$$ like good little boys and girls or are most of you going to stop promoting Rival Casino Properties now?
____
____

 

[Guard Dog]

I will try to do my own calculations on Monday, however, Rival making affiliates responsable for processor seizures is ridiculous.

As of today, my Rival sites will be sending players to RTG and Vegas Technology casinos. I will determine after Monday if this will stick.

Something is very wrong when Rival feels the need to penalize their partners for their own issues.

 

[Guard Dog]

First site:

Rival Casino Online Slots

There will be huge warnings about Rival Casinos on all of my Rival slots. I have been focusing on Rivals for about 2 years now - thank you, Rival, for making sure I diversify

 

[TheGamblingGuru]

Another thing too that I guess we all should consider is the fact that we are going to have to "TRUST" Rival even more now with their math calculations as far as their negative progressive adjustments to our accounts go, as we cannot see whether or not any of our players have actually even played the progressives!

We will just simply have to take each casinos word for it that our adjusted stats are correct and that no extra shaving has gone on there...again...what a F*cking crock of $hit!!

What other business model works this way? I know I have never encountered one like this in the real world, that's a fact!
____
____

 

[Vladi]

Question for Rival and their affiliate managers..

Apart from you seemingly being caught with your pants down on the progressives, what on earth have processor seizures got to do with player fraud?

If you have shitty processors or you are doing some unscrupulous things behind the scenes then suck it up, its your cost of doing business. Why should I pay for it?

 

[lots0]

I don't understand all this crap from Rival.

Went through it several times, all I see is my earnings being cut down and me having to now pay for expenses that have traditionally been the casinos responsibility.

I guess I am going to start cutting the traffic I send them, starting tomorrow. Like I don't already have enough to do... Thanks RIVAL!

 

[NDN]

I'm really bummed out about this one.

Up until now, I've really enjoyed working with all of the new and existing Rival brands. It's been refreshing to know that there is (perhaps was now) a software provider who makes sure their license holders run things in a reputable manner from day one.

Although initially they weren't able to handle larger deposits, I've been noticing that trend changing and their retention is getting to be better than I have ever seen in most instances.

I'll be really upset if this is their final stance on the matter. It will be quite frustrating after putting so much energy into building up a player base at a quite a few Rival brands.

On a semi-side note, has anyone else been experiencing extremely slow response time (or no response at all) to their affiliate inquiries? Lately I have been having trouble getting speedy responses (or any type of response at all in some cases) from quite a few Rival affiliate managers. It seems a little strange because in the past I've received lightning fast responses to all of my emails. Note to AM's: I've been pulling the brands that haven't responded in a timely fashion.

Anyhow, I'm ready to stick with my fellow affiliates on this one and pull all Rival brands. I'll give it a few days to make sure this can't be corrected for the benefit of affiliates (too much work to pull them all and put them back if things are amended).

Here's to hoping this is resolved quickly!

 

[royalapollo]

Royal Apollo Affiliates Adding 5% to the revshare

Dear Affiliate,

As you are probably aware Rival as recently changed the method it uses to calculate its progressive jackpots affiliate contribution and fraud charges and processor seizures.

We understand that these new calculation method has some drawbacks to affiliates promoting our Brand.

As a result Royal Apollo Affiliates is stepping up and adding to all of our active affiliates (that delivered a min of one player in the last month) 5% extra to the current Revenue share agreement.

This should cover the progressive contribution and possible fraud charges and processor seizures.

We are doing this across the board to all of our affiliates (regardless if their players play progressive slots).
Royal Apollo Affiliates believes that our affiliates are the most important part of our casino marketing and this step is the best action we can take to assure that our affiliates receive the limited damages from these new calculation.

This change will be effective as of March 1st. Please make sure to contact your affiliate manager to verify the additional 5% to your commission.

Detailed Description of affiliate contribution to progressive System

Affiliates will continue to have progressive contributions deducted and will continue to get credit for all progressive cash outs. Additionally, affiliates will receive credit for any progressive wagering losses once a players balance reaches 10% or less of the original jackpot win amount. Any progressive deductions will carry forward month on month if an account shall go negative. An affiliate will participate in the progressive deductions in the same way as an operator. This system will be effective as of March 1st, 2010.

Example)

Player wins $25k jackpot
Seed is $4k
Affiliate contributes their % of each progressive wager for all cases

Case 1:
Player cashes out $25K
Affiliate is limited to having ANW reduced by an amount up to the seed amount so ANW is reduced by -4K

Case 2:
Player cashes out $22K and loses the remaining 3K
Affiliate gets ANW reduced by seed amount (4K) but then increased by 3K on payout completion (10% or below) for a net ANW of -1K

Case 3:
Player cashes out $10K and loses the remaining 15K
Affiliate gets ANW reduced by seed amount (4K) but then increased by 15K on payout completion (10% or below) for a net ANW of +11K

Case 4 :
Player loses the entire 25K
Affiliate gets ANW reduced by seed amount (4K) but then increased by 25K on payout completion (10% or below) for a net ANW of +21K

Case 5:
Player loses 10k of the 25K, he doesn't cash out
Affiliate does not have any ANW adjustment

Case 6:

Player loses 5k, cashes out 10k and has balance of $10k
Affiliate gets ANW reduced by seed amount (4k) but then increased by 10k for a net ANW of +6k

 

[Guard Dog]

Thanks Michael (Royal Apollo).

Here is another message from a Rival Operator (Superior):

Dear Affiliate,
We have very important news.
First off, we’d like to say that we have done everything possible in our hands to avoid this situation. Unfortunately, Master Card and credit card processing in general is going through a difficult season.
As you may already know, Master Card has stopped taking ALL gaming transactions in the US and this lead to a chain of unfortunate events. The completed deposits (funds) through Master Card, during the last month that we were accepting MC deposits, are being investigated by this company. They have confiscated most of the money with no chance of recovery at the moment.
Henceforth, seized deposits due to the facts explained above, will show up as an adjustment in the affiliate commission reports as: "Bad Deposit - Lost Deposits".
* Please note that it’s most probable to see a reduction in commissions earned in March.
If in the future Master Card releases any of these funds, we will update your reports accordingly. We apologize for the inconvenience.
All American players are being moved to EwalletXpress, or Quicktender in some cases. This depends on the player level and the distribution of invitations we have available. More Quicktender invitations are on their way. Furthermore, NEW PROCESSORS for US Players are being tested and implemented soon, this being our highest priority at the moment.
Please stay tuned for more updates and, of course, we’ll be waiting for your questions so we can answer them as soon as we receive them.
Regards,
With best regards,
Paul Art

I know this was posted in another thread, but wanted to make sure it was in this large one as well.

 

[Guard Dog]

I don't really care that Rival is having processor issues, this is not the affiliate's fault whatsoever. Not even close.

Chargebacks are a different issue, of course, and we have been dealing with that for years. But why should I promote any Rival Casinos from now on? When I can get 35% that MEANS 35% from RTG, MGS, Vegas Technology, and any number of operators?

Rival needs to take another look at this or their player base is going to dry right up. I hate to say that because some of the Rival operators are very good friends. But this is not their doing.

If anyone wants to sell me their Rival sites, let me know. I'm converting mine over to promote other properties and I'll purchase Rival sites to do the same with them.