Active Players + Unique Depositors not working

Discussion in 'VideoSlots Affiliates' started by gobo, Mar 24, 2017.

  1.  
    AussieDave

    AussieDave 17 years & still going!

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    Please don't be condescending. I'm a seasoned affiliate of over 17 years. I know exactly how NGR is derived from GGR.

    My question, which you seem to be avoiding is...
    Why is VS charging players "operational cost(s)", and also charging affiliates "operational cost(s)"???!!!

    Pretty simple question, really.
     
  2.  
    AussieDave

    AussieDave 17 years & still going!

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    Hang on a minute, you said fees, costs, deductions are shared with affiliates. Why are affiliates wearing the full €10 :eek:
     
  3.  
    AussieDave

    AussieDave 17 years & still going!

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    @Ali Atam

    Your Revenue Share is calculated from the casino’s earnings of Your referred players minus:
    • game license fees (how much are these - monetory value for each game provider)?
    • casino bonuses (if bonus is lost back to casino - how much does the affiliate get charged)?
    • operational costs (what is each of these charges - itemise each charge)?
    • jackpot fees (how much - each game provider if different charge)?
    • regulator taxes - how much for each fee/charge?
    • bank fees - how much for each fee/charge?
    • chargebacks - misus the actually chargeback, what addition charge back fee(s) is there?
    It's not rocket science, all the above have a monetory charge/fee attached.

    VS affiliates want to know what ALL these are, and rightly so.
     
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  4.  
    gobo

    gobo Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    The problem with "operational costs" is that they are very vague. It is something that the casinos lately has added as a fee in order to earn more money. Instead of lowering the Rev Share % (which would have pissed off many affiliates) they have added something called "operational cost" or "admin fee". This they say is to cover their costs such as salaries, server costs, office rent etc etc etc. But actually, there is not a difference between these "fees" and the rest of the chunk that the casinos get when an affiliate refers a new player. Just a more subtle way of lowering the affiliate's commissions without us noticing. It is as absurd as me when negotiating saying that I want 30% Rev Share + 10% for my "admin fees".

    The problem is again this has passed under many affiliates noses and will continue to do so unless we keep calling them on stuff like this.

    So I guess in this case Videoslots are adding as much fees and costs both to players and to affiliates in order for us to think that the deals, rakebacks, bonuses, rev share % etc look way better than they actually are. Players don't get a cashback of 25% as advertised. We affiliates don't get X % of rev share that we think we do. Not when all hidden "fees" have been deducted.

    Also, the above is not directed towards you in any way, AussieDave. I just want new affiliates that might stumble across this thread to know what is going on in the industry.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
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  5.  
    Ali Atam

    Ali Atam Affiliate Program Representative

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    Hi Aussiedave, I think I've already replied similar questions earlier in this thread, even with a given example. If you want your personal exact breakdown, you are very welcome to contact our affiliate team for any detailed report..

    Contact email : alison.brincat @ videoslots.com

    Regards,
     
  6.  
    KasinoKing

    KasinoKing Player turned affiliate.

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    GGR - Bonuses - Licence Fee - Bank Fee - Cash Back - UK GAMBLING TAX* = NGR
    * The Gambling tax field was never added to the reporting - but I know that was missing because I asked them at the time.
    For the month in question, I worked out that was about £230.

    So that's £3,077 - £949 - £430 - £257 - £947 - £230 = NGR of £264
    £264 x 35% RS = £92.

    These fees seem EXTREMELY high - but they could be justified. How can we tell?

    The one thing I can't get my head round (I've mentioned this before) is do the Bonuses and Cash-back go back round into the GGR if the players lose this money back to the casino...?
    If not, why is it being deduced in the equation above?

    KK
     
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  7.  
    Ali Atam

    Ali Atam Affiliate Program Representative

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    I appreciate you are a seasoned affiliate AussieDave - I would like to repeat : Cashback operational fee is not deducted from the affiliate earnings.

    Best Regards,
     
  8.  
    Ali Atam

    Ali Atam Affiliate Program Representative

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    Just a kind reminder :

    As I am here trying to answer your questions as open as possible, I cannot share the commercial agreements with 3rd parties due to legal paragraphs in the agreements.

    Thank you,
     
  9.  
    Ali Atam

    Ali Atam Affiliate Program Representative

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    Hello KK,

    If players lose the cashback, it is like losing real money so affiliates earn normal commission for those losses. Same goes for bonuses.

    Regards,
     
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  10.  
    AussieDave

    AussieDave 17 years & still going!

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    These deductions etc, are in the Affiliate Terms & Conditions.

    When a new affiliate joins the VS program, that person is expect to agree to SAID T&C's. How can anyone agree to the aformentioned, when no monetory costs or percentage value is assigned to these fees/deductions, stated in SAID T&C's.

    Miles wouldn't answer these questions (I'll reiterate them below).

    While you've answered some fees, you have not answered all of them. Instead Ali you tell me/affiliates to contact Alison.
    • game license fees (how much are these - monetory value for each game provider)?
    • casino bonuses (if bonus is lost back to casino - how much does the affiliate get charged)?
    • operational costs (what is each of these charges - itemise each charge)?
    • jackpot fees (how much - each game provider if different charge)?
    • regulator taxes - how much for each fee/charge?
    • bank fees - how much for each fee/charge?
    • chargebacks - minus the actually chargeback, what addition chargeback fee(s) is there?
    If a fee/charge is not static, then please supply the percentage (%) value.

    Surely it isn't too much to ask/expect a break down in one (1) single combined reply/post, on the items listed above, thanks :)

    These fees etc., etc., need 100% publicly transparent. Not hush hush, behind closed doors.

    ---------

    BUT you have "operational costs" listed in the T&C's!

    Definition of Operating Cost(s)
    Operating (Operational) costs are the expenses which are related to the operation of a business, or to the operation of a device, component, piece of equipment or facility. They are the cost of resources used by an organization just to maintain its existence.

    Definition of Operational Cost(s)
    Operating (Operational) costs are the expenses which are related to the operation of a business, or to the operation of a device, component, piece of equipment or facility. They are the cost of resources used by an organization just to maintain its existence.

    So what "operational cost(s)" (Cashback is calculated on theoretical RTP minus operating costs) do player get charged?

    I'm asking this question because in the Affiliate T&C's (clause 4.3) it also states:
    • operational costs
    Just so where ALL on the same page... Your charging players "operating costs"... BUT your also charging affiliates "operational costs"... BOTH MEAN THE SAME THING!

    Further more, if a player receives cashback, then that player MUST have played slots.

    So fees relating to that slot-play is deducted to work-out how much cashback in paid.

    If players are charged "operating costs" ON ALL SLOTS PLAY, then why are affiliates ALSO charged "operational costs"???

    Seems from where I'm sitting, that Video Slots et al, are charging affiliates 100% of ALL their overheads etc., etc. There is no OTHER explaination as to why affiliates are reporting a 85% - 96% deduction from GGR (Gross Gaming Revenue).

    Thus leaving between $4 to $15 commission, on $100 lost at VS.

    If this was the status quo of the industry, we'd see these deductions across ALL affiliate programs. However that's not the case. This Modus Operandi (of insane affiliate GGR deductions) ARE ONLY taking place at Video Slots Affiliate Program!!!


    Edited... needed rewording
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
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  11.  
    Ali Atam

    Ali Atam Affiliate Program Representative

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    AussieDave, it seem you have a different agenda here.

    You are saying we are not transparent even though I several times have told you that you can request a breakdown from Alison with all real data from your account and what each cost is and how much. Why haven’t you done that yet?


    I previously informed in this thread that game provider fees are between 6 – 18%. I am not going to share each 3rd party agreement as that would breach legal paragraphs in these contract. If you can’t accept this, we simple can’t do business together.


    Casino bonuses, its shared. Its deducted from the GGR not affiliate earnings.

    What is included? Freespins, Deposit bonuses, Free cash, Race winnings and Cashback.


    Operational cost is an admin fee of 25%, which I also have posted in this thread previously. This fee covers our external cost to operate our business.


    Jackpot fees, these are the contributions to the local and global jackpots. Its set by the game provider. It can be 1% - 12%.


    Regulator taxes. It depends what countries you are promoting. UK 15%, DE 19%, IE 23% and AT 40%.


    Bank fees. These are deposit and withdrawal cost. We a previously informed in this thread that these range from 1 – 9.5%. We are not going to share each 3rd party agreement as that would breach legal paragraphs in these contract. If you can’t accept this, we simple can’t do business together.


    We are not charging the players anything. It simply means they don’t get cashback on the GGR, they get cashback on the NGR.


    If you think we have too high fees, you can always do CPA.

    Regards,
     
  12.  
    Guard Dog

    Guard Dog Guard Dog Staff Member

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    Let's everyone try to be a little less "jerky" to Ali. I don't like the tone here at all. He has (in my opinion) been very clear about everything. He has also offered to export stats for anyone to see. That allows anyone with an account to easily see how things are calculated!! Find another program that will do this - I challenge you this.

    I know that there is a lot of frustration due to the last 6 months to 1 year of giving everyone responses that do not include answers to the questions. I get that. However, you are getting answers.

    PLEASE......

    Start your posts off with... Ali - Can you please answer {x,y,z} for me

    or... Ali - Can you please help me understand {x,y,z}

    BUT NOT... negative remarks, accusations, or comments about the past non-disclosure of information. The only person that serves is yourself, it does not aid in getting your point across at all - it makes the other person (Ali in this case) defensive. With that said, he has nicely answered all questions even when they were framed with accusations and frustration. Let's all try to act as professional as he has been acting since he has joined the discussion (again... please).


    I'm sure I will get some backlash for this - so I tell you this.... I state all of this on my own and without being contacted by Ali, Miles, or VS. This is my personal opinion and has been stated in multiple threads over many years (you can likely query 'professional' or 'professionalism' to find me stating the same things in other threads).

    Additionally, as I had mention... I am going to work with VS to see these stats to conclusion (i.e., I will be in contact with them continuously to inquire about the state of the affiliate system updates and ensure that it is completed in a timely manner). I only have so much control over this.. after all - VS is not my company, but I will keep up the effort.

    PS - I am NOT calling anyone out here. I only want the conversations to become more collaborative.
     
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  13.  
    AussieDave

    AussieDave 17 years & still going!

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    @Guard Dog - Throwing them in the DogHouse, has certainly gain their attention, and I'll agree, the catalyst of this action has motivated Ali (per favor of VS) to unlock the secret-door. However, with all dues respect, if you want to veto the conversation of what's acceptable and what's not (aside from personal attacks, flaming etc), then maybe this thread should be closed, and you go ahead and work towards a solution with Ali, and VS.

    I just hope that they don't lead you up the garden path, like other programs have done before, and this turns into another waste of time, which affects affiliates earnings. Because until folks get the stats reinstated, and have 100% transperancy, then VS are still holding all the ACES...just sayin ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
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  14.  
    Guard Dog

    Guard Dog Guard Dog Staff Member

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    If you think I am vetoing anything, then you really haven't read my post above. I'm just setting the tone for collaboration with a willing partner.
     
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  15.  
    gobo

    gobo Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    I agree with much of your post but we have to remember that we have tried to ask them simple questions for years and this resulted in nothing in terms of clarity or transparency. In my opinion, it is the affiliates stubbornness not taking vague answers for an answer, alongside with AGD flagging them as rouge that made more progress in terms of transparency than we have been able to do in years. It feels like Videoslots actually slowly is changing for the better because of the past couple of weeks.

    I also agree that we should look forward and focus on getting things better and cool down the rhetorics, but we can not forget the past either with them dodging questions and hiding stats. This reputation takes time to wash away imo (and rightly so). I guess this reputation still haunts them and that is why many affiliates still are very suspicious of their intentions and their T&C. I don't believe that anyone here is enjoying these conversations. Both the affiliates and Videoslots have better ways to spend their days than arguing online.

    I am also very glad that Ali is here and answering questions and being open about their terms. An open and honest conversation is always the foundation of a successful business relationship.

    *Edited typos*
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2017
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  16.  
    gamingaffiliatesguide

    gamingaffiliatesguide Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    At least it is a start they are trying to clear the air a bit.

    At the end of the day, what we all have is our own stats to see what the ROI is for the traffic we send. If it's too low for whatever reason and in this case it seems to be a lot of fees then it's up to the affiliate program to do something about it. I remember when Pinnacle affiliates had fees that were not clear but the common complaint I heard was that affiliates always had players but weren't earning much money from the program and you started to see that program fade on many betting sites. Videoslots seems like a decent casino for players but if affiliates can't trust the program then it will be hard to recommend to players.

    Hopefully this discussion gets a better affiliate backend so we can see the stats are are used to and not have it hidden or a mystery.
     
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  17.  
    AussieDave

    AussieDave 17 years & still going!

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    Since VS managed to get themselves out of the rogue pit, all has gone quiet, again. Any updates on the progress about reinstating the stats and what not...AKA being transparent to their affiliates?

    Its been a tad shy of 2 weeks since anything has been said.

    Edit: I see they've updated their T&C's - These Affiliate Terms and Conditions were last updated 2017-04-18 - Version 2.4.9.

    Couldn't find any mention of that being posted here or anywhere on AGD.
    Maybe they should have been kept in the DogHouse until they reinstated all the stats...just sayin!
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2017
  18.  
    KasinoKing

    KasinoKing Player turned affiliate.

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    Nothing's changed and not a word from anyone - different day, same silence... :(

    KK
     
  19.  
    Miles_Videoslots

    Miles_Videoslots Affiliate Program Representative

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    Guys,

    We did Say May/June for Completion of this Project as yet we don't have a definitive date for release but its getting worked on proper and when we have something to show we will let everyone know.
     
  20.  
    gobo

    gobo Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Miles_Videoslots, would you mind posting what has changed in this T&C update?
     

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