WJ Issue

Discussion in 'Windows Casino' started by lots0, Mar 15, 2010.

Rogue Affiliate Program
  1.  
    inspiration

    inspiration Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Wagerjunction has never treated me bad, never spammed and being always very responsive and honest the way they operate. IF you have a chargeback it is just bad luck........it happens...........I have one of $2450 at C-planet am I complaining ? NO, this industry is about money and players can play tricks on the casino. If you are not happy about the results rotate with another program but do not try to have it played your way, a good program sticks with the facts whether you like or not, rules are rules. Blacklisting them for no proven facts is hilarious and not professional but if you want to be a crusador have it your way. Lots0 I admire you for the person you are but this has gone out of proportions, I should not have accused them they just want to help. At least they come to the forum and post, most do not ......so why do you think they want to cheat you ? makes no sense to me.
     
  2.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    This is not just about one or two small charge backs.
     
  3.  
    tryme1

    tryme1 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Actually, now that the original post, which was about WagerJunction's upcoming promotions has been deleted, frankly, no-one can see that.

    Possibly the reason that no-one can see that is the fact that it isn't true. The very first response to a fairly useful post about upcoming promos was your complaint about a chargeback that either occured 2 or more years ago, or a non paid commission that occured a few months back.

    Either you are making a complaint about a two year old chargeback - which maybe you should have addressed at the time - or you are making a complaint about something else.

    Honestly, you are doing yourself no favours here. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the issue, you are coming across like a spoiled child who isn't getting his own way.
     
  4.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Sorry you feel that way tryme.

    But really the spoiled child reference, come on, whats that about?
    Not getting my way... exactly what "way" would that be?

    Ive asked for nothing more than an admission and an apology. I guess if that is being spoiled, I'm guilty.

    It's perdy obvious now to anyone taking the time that the T&C's were changed
    retro actively.

    It is also obvious that wj has a software tracking/accounting problem.
     
  5.  
    slotplayer

    slotplayer Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    I had a bunch of chargebacks at Red Returns. Odd thing is they occured a year after the player stopped playing from what I could tell from the stats. So I removed them. Actually just went into the postive last month.

    According to the Fair Credit Act, a US card holder has 60 days to file a chargeback although the issuing bank may still consider the dispute beyond the 60 days.

    its usually big depositors that chargeback so they're most likely legit. good luck to a casino that plants chargebacks, eventually you'll get caught. You never know if the affiliate knows the player personally, despite geographical location. that sort of pr will ruin the casino overnight.

    with my retail sites I had 1 chargeback last year for $14 bucks in all the years I had it. The customer's emails were so hostile that I disputed the cb and won, but it cost me an unexpected $10 fee so I would have been better off not disputing it or just replacing the items.

    So I'm not sure what fees the casinos incur and how much they might be but even Google checkout charges $10 bucks, so does PayPal.

    I have no problem with paying my fair share of a cb and even the fees but I certainly do not want to cover the full amount. Which I believe is the case?

    so can some AM's weigh in here and tell us exactly how much we're being deducted when chargebacks occur. It would be nice to know exactly where we stand on this.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2010
  6.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    You might want to reread the 2nd post in this here thread...

    Rather obvious that your not even reading what I have written.

    I thought I made it very very clear I wanted my account closed and all association with wager junction ended.

    Just so there are no misunderstandings. Close my wager junction account and donate any monies owing now or in the future to the Casinomeister Haitian relief fund.. Just be sure to id any donation with Bryan so we can verify it. Cuz I really don't trust you to do this.

    Trust is what this business is all about... And frankly I don't trust Wager Junction and I don't think anyone else should.

    Oh yes, Stelios I really would like to hear your explanation of the evidence that has been presented here by me and by Andy that the chargeback holdover was retroactive.

    // Side track //
    Hey Andy, there seem to be a few posts that are here now, that weren't here the last time I read this thread... Must be something to do with the wj rep saying he posted something and it didn't show. But anyway it's weird. :confused:
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2010
  7.  
    wagerjunction

    wagerjunction Affiliate Program Representative

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    Mar 18, 2010
    Terms and Conditions

    We have moved from cheating and lying to software tracking/accounting problem. Where do you get all of this from ?

    WCD Admin the portion that you have highlighted below does not refer to chargebacks, what you have highlighted is where we allow for self play by affiliates and we advise that we can only pay commissions if you have purchased via those methods.

    Lotso what you are illustrating to have signed up to was the venerable Windows Affiliate program and we all know how they treated their partners.

    I am repeating again for your benefit - it was not our program and is not Wager Junction and they are not our terms and conditions.

    When we took over Windows Casino we moved it to Wager Junction and we have always had the negative ruling in place re chargebacks.

    WCD Admin whilst i agree that things could have been made less confusing and in a perfect world affiliate software would be perfect and a lot easier to operate , sometimes the simple fact of the matter is that it is not. We are at the moment talking to Playtech to ensure that this sort of thing does not happen again.In this instance we tried to get a payment to our partner to ensure that he got funds and by doing this we messed up the system internally. I think that most Playtech affiliate managers can confirm that this can be a beast to deal with. Most partners though are perfectly reasonable about this when the maths is done with them to show them what has gone on. We only have this one case as far as i am aware FYI. I do agree though that this should be sorted.

    What we can not accept is being called thieves and how the proof is there , not one shred of evidence has been forthcoming from Lotso . To be quite honest i completely agree with tryme1 - this thread is now so of base we will start a new one.

    Lotso can you please present your evidence to us of theft and cheating or please apologise to us here at Wager Junction.

    These are serious allegations and if you are not able to put up the evidence well then you need to apologise i think. We are quite proud of our reputation at Wager Junction.

    In the many years that we have been online we have never ever welched on an affiliate and to have you labelling us in this way for no other reason than you having a chargeback is not on and something that no honest affiliate program should have to put up with.

    Please present your evidence or apologise to us in this thread.

    As for the donation to The Meisters Haiti fund it will be made in the name of the affiliate program. We owe you $5.90 and we are going to be paying in $100 to the Meisters Haiti relief effort.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2010
  8.  
    WCD Admin

    WCD Admin Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 18, 2010
    Quickly here as I don't like to stand in a pile of poo for more than two days :p in a row..
    I don't know the situation well enough to comment. However it seems to me you can pay bonuses out of pocket and not have them effect the stats in anyway and document this in the bonus agreement. The stats should NOT be touched in my opinion. Just a suggestion. Please leave me out of the rest of this thread.... 8) I didn't see half the posts when I made my post and probably would have avoided this if I had.
    Something funny DID happen. There were only a few posts when I posted and then somehow my post showed up after all of them. I was just moving away from this thread and didn't want to appear insane trying to explain what lots0 saw.... vbulletin ghost...
     
  9.  
    Guard Dog

    Guard Dog Guard Dog Staff Member

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    In regards to the thread itself:

    It is possible that I messed something up with the thread. I moved the original post (which has nothing to do with this issue) to it's own post. Sorry for that, but it just didn't make sense to keep it the way it was.
     
  10.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Holey shit, are you on drugs?
    My very first comment that started this entire thread, was asking if you had fixed the software glitch, that reported you owed me $500, when you said you didn't owe me that money. Thats a BIG software problem, especially sense it appears to cheat affiliates out of money.
    And now you don't remember that? Well obviously, can't have an exchange with with someone that either has selective memory is on drugs or is just being an asshole.

    Take another look at the screen shots I provided. Shows you owe me $500, yet you just said you only owed me $5.90, I guess you would have to be a real moron not to see that as a problem.

    You say that was the windows contract(no kidding?), well guess what? that is the contract I agreed too and was told by your company you would honor after Wager Junction bought windows, not to mention that laws in just about every civilized country in the world REQUIRE you to honor it. Which you never did. That in and of itself PROVES your company is dishonest and cheats.

    In my opinion, your either not very bright or your just down right dishonest. I'm going for the last one.

    Also let me tell you something Stelios, your shitty attitude and personal attacks lost the best friend windows had in the aff community. I was the only affiliate to keep at Bryan about removing windows from his Rogue list at casinomeister (because I trusted Greg) and I was the only affiliate to publicly support windows casino in the industry forums. I got trashed for it too.

    BTW - your not on casinomeisters approved list, your just off his Rogue list (see what I can do about that) , BIG difference betwen the two.

    Your going to donate a $100 to casinomeisters Haitian relief fund, well thats cool, just be sure to add on that $5.90 you say you owe me... That would make it $105.90. Your getting off cheap.

    Well if nothing else here, I got someone that never would have given anything to give $100. Of course, he still has to actually donate the money and I have my doubts about that.

    I think I have made my point here. Windows casino and the company that runs it have accounting problems and memory problems... to say the least.

    I am going to join all those other websites that have blacklisted windows casino and I am going to throw wager junction and their associated casinos/poker room on the list as well. Simply because of the actions of their management.

    google says there are ~120,000 sites that have blacklisted windows casino. Must be some kind of a record... well now there will be 120,001.

    I would urge anyone thinking about promoting wager junction or becoming their affiliate, to CAREFULLY read this thread.

    I have shown time after time that I had valid points backed up with evidence. just to have the wager junction rep, ignore what was presented and then attack me and my business, all in hopes of discrediting me. Well it didn't work, it may even have back fired on them.

    Have a good day Stelios. Im done with words, it's time for action. ;D

    Oh Andy, have you had time to review all this?
    After you make your review, I hope you will see fit to change wager junctions status here at AGD.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2010
  11.  
    bingostreet

    bingostreet Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 18, 2010
    Wager Junction

    So Stelios has let me know that there appears to be some issue re WJ and i have to leave the nice comfortable world of bingo for a while . I took some time out to read the threads and can see that there is a bit of misunderstanding on both sides of the coin here.

    lotso you have had 2 chargebacks at WJ and you are saying that this is bullshit and that it is WJ who are engineering this because they dont want to pay you. Do i have that right.

    You say that they owe you $500 odd dollars and they are refuting this by pointing out that they have paid you all that they have owed and that they can prove this.

    How much money have you earned on this program and how much have they paid you. Very simple really to work that one out.

    Its quite clear that there is an issue with the reporting side on the affiliate program. Perhaps it might also be because of a lack of understanding of the software. It can be very frustrating navigating through it trust me i know.

    I bet you 10-1 odds that the blacklisting was done back in the days of the old Windows Affiliate program and that there is only 1 person doing any blacklisting nowdays - umm that would be you Lotso :D.

    Also a ton of sites are not on Bryans accredited list - does that mean they are bad - i dont think so, ;D It just means they have not come to a commercial arrangement.

    Andy i dont think you are getting what WJ did here. The minimum for a wire payment is $500 and if you earn an amount below this they can not process it off the system. I have the same long standing issue with Casino Blasters. on the reporting side of things and for significantly more. They explained it to me . It made sense, i move on.

    Casinos move from affiliate program to affiliate program sometimes. Brad are you saying that WJ has to honour the terms and conditions of the old Windows affiliate program ? You did sign up to WJ to promote Windows and you would have to abide by its T&Cs and not the old programs T&Cs. Seems pretty cut and dry to me on that one.

    Not sure why you are bringing up the old affiliate program. is there a reason for that ?

    I am not really interested in who done what and what done who as i have loads of work on at the moment :eek: but i would have no hesitation in promoting WJ products. They are one of the Playtech products that i have no problem with really and it does help knowing that there are good guys working there.

    I have been royally shafted as have others by various Playtech outfits but i do feel that this situation is a bit of a Storm in a Teacup situation.

    Brad in your first post your comment
    Are you saying that i screwed you as well . Hell man - 2 chargebacks in a few years and it could have been the same player . Dude try playing online poker at some these places - i swear its rigged . I think both you and Stelios should take a chill pill and perhaps have a private conversation. I know both guys and both of you are cool individuals who i think have had a bit of a misunderstanding in the full glare of a public forum. Have a chat with each other and i think that you will find there is a lot of common ground.

    I leave it at that and hope to have a few beers with you guys some day.

    now im heading back to the world of Bingo - it rocks baby ;)
     
  12.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Not quite. I'm saying that WJ retro actively changed the t&c's on me regarding holding over chargebacks on the first chargeback that happened in Nov 07.

    Not really sure how much they owe me, based on the retro change in T&C's and there faulty software.

    I'll take those odds... ;-) You might want to google it and check dates, I did.

    I do have a well known and used Blacklist, but I am sure not the only site to run a casino blacklist. Casinomeisters Rogue list, just to name one, is far far better known and used than my little sites Blacklist.

    At the time that was the deal with Wager Junction.

    Not quite correct.
    I never signed up with wager junction, till months afteter the fact. They(wager junction) migrated my info and payment details to their site when windows casino was purchased by wager junction.
    I never personally gave wager junction any personal information until I changed my payment method, some months after windows changed hands.
    I was also assured by the new owners that "nothing would change, except the percentage hold out for fraud would stop", as WJ's accounting software could not handle it. I was told this after I realized my info had already been migrated to wager junction without my permission.

    I think the first part I highlighted is the important part. Anyone can make an error in judgment in this business. And I think you are making one right now with the storm in the teacup thing. This never was about money, at least to me. This has become more about honesty, integrity and trust.

    Come on man... Not Cool. I never said anything like that about you.
    Besides, I been doing this awhile... I've had and understand chargebacks... as you pointed out.

    Again, this NOT just about a couple of chargebacks or a few hundred dollars. It is about the way wager junction does business and the way they treat affiliates.

    So the wager junction rep had to recruit you to show up here? I ain't even gonna comment on that, other than... :rolleyes:

    lol... those White Hair, Walker Racers must be more fun than I thought. ;D

    BTW - Thanks for the input. It gave me a chance to lay out what I was trying to say a little more clearly.
     
  13.  
    Guard Dog

    Guard Dog Guard Dog Staff Member

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    Well... I had hoped this thread wouldn't get out of control, but it kinda has :(

    I would like both Stelios and Lots0 to take this conversation offline. This is a disagreement between 1 affiliate and 1 affiliate program. We need to be more professional on our forums here and take these matters offline when they begin to go in circles.

    Thanks to both of you... don't shoot the messenger, but all parties knew I was going to try to keep this polite. Problem is that I have been working 20+ hours and simply did not have enough time in the day.

    I will mediate this disagreement in private, if both parties would like to do that. Otherwise, the rest of this post should be simply to share contact information for a private conversation (Of course, I would suggest a PM for that anyway)

    Cool, fellas?
     
  14.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Sorry Andy...

    Guess Im not really sure how it is spinning out of control?

    It's your forum, handle it however you want. :)
    I've made my point, thanks for letting me.
     
  15.  
    bingostreet

    bingostreet Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Nope that was not the case - i was the head man then and i didnt change anything

    Mate if more of them treated theri affiliates like WJ we would be a far happier bunch - that blacklist stuff all seems so old btw - i tried it with the KW windows casino blacklist. Not sure how you are doing it.

    ummmm they dont pay me anymore but i like the guys and trust em.

    I gotta agree with Andy here - you guys need to take this private as it is a disagreement between the two parties .

    Tell you what - most of the people who play Bingo dont even have silver hair - i got my buddy in colorado to thank for getting me into this - Nascar1 - not sure if you know him. Did me a real favour that i have not managed to repay him back for yet.
     
  16.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Greg.. If you remember correctly, this was the first occasion I called WJ cheats. I still think that.

    Just search for the keyword [casino blacklist]... at last check I was at #4.

    If your talking about the 120,000 search results I was talking about earlier in this thread try the keyword [windows casino blacklisted]

    As far as going private. The reason things like this go to an open forum is because they could not be resolved in private.
    So going back to private conversation is rather useless, from my point of view.

    Besides I don't want anything, except for confirmation that Wager Junction has donated $105.90 to Casinomeisters Haitian Relief fund.

    Ya, I know Stelios is screaming he wants this to all go private and about how this is hurting business and his reputation... well I guess WJ should have been playing fair all along and there wouldn't be any problems, at least with me.

    And yes this has been very unprofessional.. too bad we have affiliate programs that force affiliates to go to these lengths to resolve problems or to warn other affs about bad programs.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2010
  17.  
    bingostreet

    bingostreet Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 19, 2010
    Confusion

    Lotso im getting really confused here .

    You were told you were being migrated to WJ back in the day and if you did not want that then you should have spoken up and your account would have been closed.

    The main reason for the migration btw was to get you off the old local affiliate program onto the newer Global affiliate program which meant that there was no opportunity to simply change things on a player account.

    The terms and conditions for Windows Casino -in particular the Playtech Casino are on WJ. The old Windows Casino affiliate program was for an RTG Casino that no longer exists my friend.

    I see your site at 5 - probably because of different data centres but i dont see any complaints about Windows on that whole page.

    I dont remember Stelios saying that but i do remember me asking for it and Andy asking for that.

    Mate this is doing no one any good not you or WJ and thats why i am saying make this private if you want to continue and if you dont well walk away from them as you have indicated that you would.

    For the record i think you are making a mistake in your assesment of Stelios . I know Stelios very well and he is a man of integrity and passion who really looks to help people out. He does not just pay lip service to that.

    That is entirely your choice of course as for myself this is the last that i am posting on this subject. I am not wanting to test Andys patience and i think he has done a great job with AGD in a short period of time. Im a lurker not a poster most of the time - i read
     
  18.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Working on that. I want to get all the glorious 10 years in there. Just remember Stelios, you wanted to see it...

    Oh I have walked away, the ties are cut, at least on my end.
    And this ain't hurting me... Everybody already knows what I am like. I'm just letting people know what wager junction is like.

    Greg, I am perdy much done here as well.
    You really don't want me to get into that migration thing here.
    From my perspective I got bent over a chair and nobody bothered to use any lube.

    I will lay it all out, from my perspective, on my site, over the next couple of weeks. It takes a while to research and write all this crap. ;)

    It was pointed out to me that both sides seem to missing the others points here, and we are just going around in circles. I gotta agree with that.

    Like I said before, all I want to see from Stelios or WJ is the donation of $100 Stelios said he would make... along with $5.90 he says he owes me, donated to CM's Haitian Relief fund.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2010
  19.  
    tryme1

    tryme1 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Never a truer word was spoken. Peace out.
     
  20.  
    tryme1

    tryme1 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 20, 2010
    Actually, I think I need to apologise for that last remark. That was out of order. Apologies.
     

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