WJ Issue

Discussion in 'Windows Casino' started by lots0, Mar 15, 2010.

Rogue Affiliate Program
  1.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 15, 2010
    So stellos did you ever get that "software" problem with your accounting fixed?

    Hummm, you'd think that when your accounting software says you owe someone over $500 and you say ou don't owe it, there is a problem.

    My account still shows you owe me $500+ from like six or seven months ago, but you won't pay me because you say you don't owe me.

    THATS A PROBLEM...


    You can also expect a very large number of odd looking 'chargebacks' working with WJ.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2010
  2.  
    wagerjunction

    wagerjunction Affiliate Program Representative

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    Mar 16, 2010
    Hello Lotso


    Back in December I explained to you how the balance in your account was made up and why it reflects what it does. Since you have raised this issue in a public forum I will respond in the same forum. You had earnings of $494.97 in September 2009, and since there was a CPA offer for all affiliates at that time you were also entitled to $20 extra (for bringing one new player). The total amount of $514.97 was paid to you via Wire (our minimum payment amount via Wire is $500). I explained to you that CPA is added manually by me, which meant the balance in the system ($494.97) was below the minimum amount ($500) and therefore the system setup did not allow us to clear this balance as ‘paid’.

    In November you had earnings of $530.90, the majority of which ($525) came from a player who eventually charged back. This is something you wouldn’t accept, even though there is a Chargeback column in your stats and you can see the amount. I don’t think there is a single affiliate program who pays commission on charged back amounts, and this is what we did in this case as well. The $525 was removed from your account, and only the $5.90 was counted as real commission. Since we have moved Windows to Playtech you have sent us very little traffic as I suspect that most of your traffic us USa based and we unfortunately are not able to accept players from this country

    You now have $500.87 in your balance, which is the sum of $494.97 (paid in September) and $5.90. This was explained to you previously and we went out of our way to make sure that you got funds that you were entitled to. As Playtech have built the system and it responds to different amounts for different payment methods it is sometimes quite difficult to clear amounts. Webmasters who promote a lot of Playtech products can confirm this with you I am sure.

    I do agree that there must be a better way to do things and we have brought this up with Playtech and hopefully this issue will be cleared. We will take another look to see what can be done re the balance on the account. We have nothing to hide - you have had 2 chargebacks in the years that you have promoted Windows Casino on the Playtech platform and on each occasion you have sent us rude emails stating that we are thieves.

    I think that you will find that when we took over the Windows Casino affiliate program in its RTG days we have transformed both the Casino and the Affiliate program into places that players can play at and partners can earn at. We have also in addition placed ourselves at your disposal and provided full explanations for everything that has happened on your account each time you have had queries. I am also quite happy for you to come to our offices to view the accounts in question or I can put these up as screenshots on this forum. I am happy for any London based webmaster who wants to come in to our offices to view these details to verify this for you if you want this done as well.

    This statement of yours I regard as cheap shot and is something that webmasters did on forums many years ago for various reasons. I can quite understand the frustration of webmasters with particular affiliate programs but I do not think you can regards us in the same light as some of these programs.If you are not happy working with us then that is your choice to not promote us and not make use of the Windows flash games that you do use and to terminate your account. What we will not accept is the insinuation that we are cheating webmasters out of their earnings. We would like an apology if this statement was made in the heat of the moment.

    I think that you will find that we tend to look after our marketing partners and you can confirm this by looking at our long association with both the GPWA and AGD whose seals we carry on the Wager Junction site.

    Regards
    Stelios
     
  3.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 16, 2010
    Wow somebody has got their shorts in wedge... and it's gonna cost them.

    Hey bud why don't you re-read my post.

    I said your friggen software did not work right and it was a problem... and it is.

    I been working with windows casino for a very very very long time,
    I think over ten years. But it ends today.

    Your stuff is off my site... all except for the blacklisting,
    that will go up in a few days, along with a full history of my ten year
    association with windows casino. Should be interesting reading. :)

    Two chargebacks out of three total players...
    in ~2 years, that is a rather large amount of chargebacks don't you think?
    I sure think so.

    As far as the traffic, I cut you guys down to 3 or 4 clicks a day,
    after the first bull shit charge back.
    But that was a while before your time Stelios.

    Your explanation of how the software says you owe me money and you say
    you don't just never made sense to me.
    But I wrote it off, because it was only $500 and the one thing you did make
    very clear was that I was never going to see that money.

    As far as the flash games,
    I made a deal about 3 or 4 affiliate managers and two owners ago about
    those games, but I guess you should not be held to that agreement,
    so I have removed them.

    In closing,
    I would like to point out to all my Friends and fellow affiliates,
    if you do business with Stelios expect to be treated like crap...
    I think you can see that here.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    Sorry for the big pics, I was hoping they would resize...
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2010
  4.  
    tryme1

    tryme1 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 16, 2010
    Quite the opposite, Lots0. It looks, at first inspection, that what Stelios is saying is very reasonable and makes perfect sense.
     
  5.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    tryme it aint about the money.

    Like I said I wrote that money off a long time ago.

    added... tryme you had less than 3 minutes to read everything and go over the pics... gotta hand it to you... your fast.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2010
  6.  
    wagerjunction

    wagerjunction Affiliate Program Representative

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    Mar 16, 2010
    Chargebacks

    Lotso i think that having 2 chargebacks out of 3 over a couple of years says more about the kind of traffic that you are delivering rather than the treatment that you are getting from us at the affiliate program.

    I know that you had a mail exchange with Greg who was the manager at the time after the first chargeback where you called the program cheats and liars in much the same vein that you are now.

    I think we have been quite reasonable and forthright with yourself and if you are still not able to accept this then there is not much i can personally do about it.

    I can not wait to look at the Blacklist page and see what the last 10 years have been like for you. What i can tell you is that since we took over the Windows Affiliate program - we have changed a number of things or Greg did initially. I am still in contact with him and can get him to confirm the below.

    Affiliates actually got paid - a lot of them can testify to that
    They also got paid the amount that was stated in the account ( yes apart from this glitch on the software that has been explained to you )
    No admin fees or holding amounts were kept back
    The Affiliate program doubled in size on RTG month on month until we were forced out of the United States

    The men that you dealt with were shysters and cowboys and Windows Casino was blacklisted everywhere from Casinomeister to Winneronline and players were not exactly happy either . That is not the case now though.Please go and find a single player complaint re Windows now.
    Go onto Casinomeister and see if it is blacklisted.

    I personally love paying affiliates and this matter has been explained to you a few times now.

    Finally the software is not ours - we use software supplied by Playtech , we have to set payment minimums and maximums - because you did not get to $500 in revshare alone which is the minimum for a wire we can not process it off the system.

    You got to over $500 with the CPA that we were paying for new purchasing players. We wanted to make sure that you got funds That CPA was added manually so it does not appear on the affiliate system.

    I think that you have taken a very cheap shot at us simply because you are angry that you have had chargebacks. It is not my fault that your players have charged back.
     
  7.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 16, 2010
    at 2 or 3 clicks a day... the traffic I was sending you I never expected to convert,
    just part of the deal with the flash games... the fact it converted at all shows the very high quality of my traffic. :)

    Answer me this...
    Why the personal attacks on me and my business?
    Is it that I am hitting a little close to home? That would be my guess.

    I never once personally attacked you and I won't.
    Your just a tool (and ya that can be taken two ways ;) )
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2010
  8.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 16, 2010
    Any program that changes their terms and conditions retroactively like wj did... are cheats.

    I didn't make a big deal about when the program retroactively changed the T&C's on me. But I guess I should have.

    You are aware, that the common opinion in the industry is that you owe me a lot more than just the $500,
    because of retroactively changing the terms and conditions on carry overs.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2010
  9.  
    tryme1

    tryme1 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 16, 2010
    Thanks. It looks like 8 minutes to me between your posting and mine, but I'm pleased you appreciate I'm capable of understanding things in under 20 minutes.

    I suspect there's bunches of history here, reading between the lines of what I can only describe as your anger, Lots0, about this program.

    The thing is: everyone knows that back in the day Windows Casino were, shall we shall, dodgy and that King Solomons (and my memory may fail me here) went bust.

    But your issue with the current affiliate program doesn't stand up to close scrutiny.

    It seems to me that you were paid for the traffic sent and that you have no real issue here.

    To my mind, WagerJunction have made great progress in turning around the reputation of these casinos.
     
  10.  
    wagerjunction

    wagerjunction Affiliate Program Representative

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    Mar 17, 2010
    Spurious Claims

    Lotso i think that you are making some very wild claims right now.

    When exactly did the above happen ?

    We are not the ones making wild claims and are merely responding to your wild claims. Did you think we should sit back and swallow the inaccuracies that you are now spouting. The world has moved on from the days when webmasters could just go onto forums and accuse programs of things with no basis and thankfully so. I think that that agenda is on your end of the woods.

    tryme1 there is no long history here. Lotso has delivered 3 players in a few years since we have been on Playtech and unfortunately 2 of those players have been fraudulent. After the first player charged back we got a few nasty emails from him and then again when the latest charge back happened. I think you can decide re the quality of traffic that is coming in.I can sympathise with his predicament but i will not simply sit back and allow him to call us cheats and thieves.

    King Solomons Casino has never gone bust and has been operating continually for over 11 years. What we have done is taken what we thought was a decent brand and made it a safe place for players to play at .

    Lotso I think that you will find that contrary to your claim , the community here and at every other place would support us and your claim that we owe you money can be refuted by simply showing what we have paid you in the past and comparing it to your screen shot is easily done.

    I think we have been quite reasonable with you up until now and have explained at length what has transpired . I am at a loss as to the reason as to why you dont get it . Perhaps your tools are not as sharp as mine.

    Regards
    Stelios
     
  11.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    So your NOT going to respond to retro actively changing your terms and conditions on me that caused me to have negative carry over?

    This happened before you started with WJ Stelios.

    I'll give you a chance to provide your side first. Just answer the following questions.
    Would you please explain how I ended up in negative for almost two years? When you had a no carry over policy when I signed up?

    And just exactly when did WJ change their carry over policy on chargebacks?

    Just rememer that I have the info too, so be honest.



    Sttelios you and I both know that Wager Junction cheated me.

    And now you try to trash me to avoid having to take responsibility.

    I got news for ya, I DON"T want the money and If I do get It will be sent to charity. It's money from crooks and theives and I don't want it.

    What I want is JUSTICE and I don't want to see any other webmaster get ripped off by Wager Junction.

    So now my agenda is out in the open.

    Why not try some more personal attacks or talk about how bad the 2 or 3 clicks a day I was sending you was (like I said that traffic was never intended to convert, it was the the least and worst traffic I could send to fulfill a deal I had with one of your many predecessors.)

    I am going to ask Andy to change the title of this thread to something a little more appropriate.
     
  12.  
    wagerjunction

    wagerjunction Affiliate Program Representative

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    Mar 17, 2010
    Respond

    Actually i did respond and not sure why it did not show up. So here we go again.

    What retroactive change are you talking about ? Please can you clarify this.
    We do not carry over negative balances from player win. However we do carry over negative balances from chargebacks. This is not uncommon in this industry. Brad i am not sure how you come to figure that WJ cheated you as we have patiently explained on a number of occassions as to what has occurred. Would you like to see how much was paid to you and then we can compare it to your screenshots.

    You will not get any money as very little is owed to you as per my previous posts and we will not be blackmailed into paying you money that you have not earned. With regards to personal attacks - we are not attacking you , we are simply stating our case. You are the one who is name calling. Did you think that we would simply sit back while you try and blacken our name.

    I never talked about the 2 or 3 clicks a day - you did , i simply drew your attention to the fact that it might be the quality of your traffic that you send through that might be the cause of the chargebacks. To be quite honest i have not had another affiliate who has had 2 chargebacks so i know that it is the traffic.

    tryme1 King Solomons has never gone bankrupt and has been operating continually for over 11 years . We took Windows Casino and made it a place where players can play and safely again.

    Lotso i do feel very sorry for you - you say that we have an agenda , it seems like you are the one with the agenda . I can understand your frustration re the chargebacks, but to go ahead and call us liars and cheats is simply not cricket and we will not simply sit back and permit you to do this without defending ourselves.

    With regards to your statement :

    That i think sums up the situation. In one breath you are telling me that you are not attacking me and in the very next line you are insulting me.

    We are all grown ups in this industry and i dont think we would be very interested in stealing $500 of an affiliate . What would we do with it ? I think that your anger is now clouding your judgement and you need to calm down and think about this situation logically before it gets any worse for you.

    Regards
    Stelios
     
  13.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    I guess you don't read so well so I am going to repeat some things.

    I DON'T WANT THE MONEY! If you decide to play fair send the money to charity, casinomeister has a Haiti relief fund.

    Now when I signed up with windows casino there was nothing about holding over chargebacks in the T&C's. After years and years making some good money with windows casino I got one charge back. It was then that the management (same management as now) decided to retroactively change the terms and conditions to hold over chargebacks.

    Now I don't mind the policy of holding over chargebacks, it makes sense.

    But what was wrong was that Wager junction made the change retroactively and charged me the money. Hence the negative balance carried over on my account that you can see in the pics I provided.

    Again Stelios, exactly what date did wager junction change the T&C's regarding holding over chargebacks? Was it before, after or during the first charge back on my account?

    Oh ya, where is Greg. I though you were going to contact him. I would like to hear what he has to say in public about this as he was the aff manager when this happened and he no longer works for you guys.

    You can go on and on about how bad my traffic is and how I am blackmailing you.

    But my traffic don't matter to you anymore cus you ain't getting any of it. So you going on and on about how bad my traffic is, is really a lame effort all about trying to hurt me. Just like the false blackmailing charge. Again just shows how you treat your affiliates.

    Nope Wager Junction cheated me. You know it, I know it and I'll prove it in public if I have to.

    Why don't you just admit to the reto change in T&C's and apologize to me and I'll drop this here and now and you can keep your f*&%ing money.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2010
  14.  
    wagerjunction

    wagerjunction Affiliate Program Representative

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    Terms and Conditions

    Brad - we have paid you what is due to you. Here are the amounts paid on the relevant dates :

    795.61 – 22 September 2009
    514.97 –13 October 2009

    So not to sure who is not reading well because as i stated in the previous post you are not going to get any money so unfortunately those people in Haiti will not be benefiting on this occassion.

    When you signed up with Windows Affiliates it was owned by another group and they were possible the lowest of the low in terms of taking from webmasters and players alike. I am sure that you can confirm this with Bryan at Casinomeister. It is quite ironic that you had no problems there and you have issues with us.

    We have made no retroactive changes - as far as i am aware the policy that exists now re chargebacks has always been in place or certainly has been in place for a very long time. As you state - it is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. I doubt that the program was influenced to change anything in its terms and conditions because of a single chargeback on your account.

    The reason for the chargeback appearing on your account is quite simple. You were paid the commission for the losses and the player subsequently charged back.

    Please go ahead and prove in public as to how we cheated you. I would be very interested in looking at this.

    Regards
    Stelios
     
  15.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Just to point out here... When I used "you" I was referring to Wager Junction sand not you personally Stelios.

    As I have stated several times, you were not even employed by these guys when this happened.

    As far as proving it, how about providing the info I asked for. The exact date is not "a long time".

    I know you have access to that info. Of course your not going to give the information because it would show I was right and wager junction is a cheat.

    Oh ya, where is Greg? Afraid to bring him on board this discussion?

    Check back, I guess I will go spend some time and gather the info.

    Affiliates pay close attention this... this is what you can expect when you deal with wager junction.


    added - I just gotta say this. From the very first I have said this is NOT about money. But Stelios keeps trying to infer that I am blackmailing him. Not true. You that know me, know I am not like that. Money is not that important to me. Also my integrity has been questioned by this employee of wager junctions.
    I would be happy to put my public record of integrity up against wager junctions or his anytime.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2010
  16.  
    wagerjunction

    wagerjunction Affiliate Program Representative

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    Wager Junction

    Brad i have worked for Wager Junction for many years - even while Greg was on board. I looked after the Greek market for Wager Junction and your first chargeback was something that myself and Greg discussed.

    When and if he comes into this discussion is entirely up to him and not driven by me. You can also approach him if you want him to come into this.

    Do you want me to give you an exact date . I am afraid that is something i can not do as monitoring Terms and Conditions is not something i do. I am pretty sure that Andys system would have picked anything up and as far as i am aware that term and condition was in place before we took on Windows Casino and that was in 2006 if my memory serves me correctly.

    You stated that you were going to prove we cheated you and you have not come up with anything yet apart from a few wild statements.

    We have also got a lot of emails from people in this time pointing out that they think we have handled this well. That is from affiliate partners who have read this, and the single other affiliate who has posted has indicated that he thinks we have been more than reasonable with you.

    I think your "see what you get" is simply not going to wash with most people as i think that most of them can see that you have been dealt with fairly.

    If you are not happy i can close your account and we can certainly donate your balance to the Haiti relief fund . Let me know if this is what you wish.

    Regards
    Stelios
     
  17.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    The charge back occured in November 2007.

    Here are the terms and conditions I signed up with.
    http://web.archive.org/web/20010608112948/www.windowscasino.com/wtac.phtml?ip=1011

    Here is what I ended up with.
    Wager Junction

    In looking back, it appears the change to the T&C's happened just after UGIEA when windows changed owners and went playteck.
    A very confusing time.
    I should have dropped them then, but I remember being assured several times by that "nothing has changed" and they would honor the existing contracts. Still looking for those emails... I know I have them, I save everything.

    I never intended to bring this up,
    those of you reading this thread can see that.
    I got pissed off by the personal attacks,
    after I pointed out a software error and made what I consider to be a valid
    comment about excessive odd chargebacks and remembered that I felt cheated at the time over that chargeback and I said so to Greg the windows aff manager at the time...
    something you seemed very eager to bring up in trying to show what a asshole I am.
    You don't need to prove I am an A-hole, most folks that know me already know I am an asshole, but I am an honest asshole.

    As far as Greg, you were the one that said you were going to contact him in the first place. I just said I wanted to hear what he had to say.
    Obviously Greg told you to stuff it. If he chooses to show up cool, if not thats cool too.

    I am glad you are receiving so many supportive emails.
    Maybe a few of them would like to speak up in public... lol

    Actually, I was told we were both out of line and were verging on being slapped down a little. ;)

    I will admit that my "tool" comment may have been a bit out of line,
    but after the way you personally attacked me and mine over a valid comment. Again a good example of how affs get treated by wj. I am not a bit sorry for it.
    Ya the comment could be taken more than one way.. But it was meant only one way. You are a "tool" of your owner..

    I guess all this thread has done is to make me despise Wager Junction management even more than I did already.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2010
  18.  
    Guard Dog

    Guard Dog Guard Dog Staff Member

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    The barbed comments and namecalling do need to stop (on both sides). I think this can all be discussed easily enough without resorting to this.

    Here is the scrape from AGD's system in January 2006, which was when I put the spider to WagerJunction:

    WagerJunction 2006 T&C

    I would think that Chargebacks did not apply to this contract back then due to the following verbiage:

    Purchases need to be made via Neteller Prepaid ATM or Click2Pay. These are the only purchase methods that will be accepted for payment of commission. Commission on purchases made via Credit Card will not qualify.
     
  19.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Andy do you have a scrape of October 07 then of late Nov 07 or December 07 that you could show?

    I think that would explain everything.
     
  20.  
    WCD Admin

    WCD Admin Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Despite the bickering - and to address the facts and not the people here:

    To me the valid point is that affiliate back-end software needs to work and be clear and easy to understand. Its' hard to get paid by some programs and the very fact that affiliates have to investigate any of these things is disappointing if not distressing. The software providers obviously have very intelligent folks behind them with all the math involved in running casino games. So obviously the stats for affiliates should be accurate. I probably have 50 or more programs to track and they certainly don't all pay me without thinking... there is a lot of rattling you have to do in order to get paid sometimes. It's stressful and time consuming: affiliate programs should report accurate data to avoid confusion. Confusion often leads to arguments and fights. When your software says you owe someone, its going to confuse them if you say you don't. If you offer something extra of course its up to you to make sure it doesn't break your stats program and confuse your affiliates - if so, you might as well just not offer it.

    I know I spend about 50% of my time chasing payments, and doing math to make sure stats are accurate. That's not fair.

    Lets keep it on point. We can get more accomplished this way!

    (looking out for flying tomatoes)

    There are points to be taken on both sides ;D just my 2 cents
     

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