Rival Suspensions/Bannings - Thoughts?

[Guard Dog]

Hey guys,

After talking with a few folks about Rival Casinos, I thought I would put together some numbers from my own stats. This is not a complete picture, but represents my TOP 8 Rival Programs and my players throughout the year. I try pretty hard with Rival Casinos and have done pretty well at times.

When I look hard at the numbers, though, I am quite worried at what I see. Especially in relation to my Top Depositors. These numbers relate ONLY to players that have deposited. The number of signed up, NON-Converted players is more than astounding, it's ridiculous.


Picture 1: Overall Players (2009) vs. Bannings/Suspensions

View attachment 77

Summary: This tells me that I have 22.5% of my players either banned or suspended. That is equivalent to: 1 out of 5 Players BANNED/SUSPENDED From Rival.


Picture 2: Top 5/10 Depositers (2009) vs. Bannings/Suspensions

View attachment 79

Summary: This is even MORE alarming to me. It essentially says that 1 out of 3 of my TOP 5 Depositors are banned or suspended!!! It also says that more than 1 out of 3 of my TOP 10 Depsitors are banned or suspended!!!


Now - I know this is incredibly alarming and I know I have never seen this on either RTG or Microgaming.

Can anyone provide me with a much larger set of data to work with (in regards to Rival)?

How about with MGS? Or RTG? Or Other Software Provider?



I would love to compare data to find out what's going on. I am really getting worried that my efforts on the Rival Gaming side are being thwarted by: Bad Bannning Practices, Bad Retention, or worse.

 

[bonustreak]

Let me do some homework!! This is alarming!!

 

[Engineer]

Truly shocking stats you posted there. Holy poop!

I'll look through my 2009 stats and come back with some details. I hope others will do the same.... We should get to the bottom of this once and for all.

 

[Bonus Paradise]

I will also try to get some numbers
thanks for that post Guard Dog
its like bonustreak said, alarming!

 

[bc518]

That's weird. Why did Rival casinos ban so many players? I just don't understand it. They don't like bonus hunters? or These players are frauds? Frauds are usually a few percents. This ratio provided by GuardDOG is too high.

 

[AffiliateWIDE Steve]

These are some alarming numbers; however, each operator should be looked at in according with the stats that pertain to it and not just across the software.

I appreciate you put those numbers out so that we can look out and flip this the other way over at Box24 Casino - AffiliateWIDE's new Rival that just launched.

When reports like this are released, it makes us work harder to show that it all comes down to the operator itself - or at least that is what we hope to prove.

I am interested in seeing some of the other numbers besides what Guard Dog posted.

Cheers.

 

[belgamo]

WOW, your numbers are so much different than mine. LMK what your looking at.

 

[Guard Dog]

WOW, your numbers are so much different than mine. LMK what your looking at.

Those numbers are from the Player Deposit Summary for each program I hope your numbers are way different than mine!

 

[Nicolas-Johnson]

many variables to consider

Hi Gang,


Ok, let me try to address this part by part:

1- Our average is no where near as bad as what is posted in your particular data set.

2- It is normal that a higher percentage of large depositors are fraud. If you are going to use a stolen credit card to defraud an online casino (which happens quite a bit), you aren't going to deposit $20. You'll deposit the max. Same for user charge backs.

3- I've seen a case where an affiliates stats said a large number of players in one month, all banned. Turns out, it was one player, opening multiple accounts to claim sign up bonuses. You can't always count on one player = one person.

4- We do believe the Rival banning system is too sensitive. That is why we no longer use the automate Rival banning, expect in extreme circumstances like charge backs.

5- The % of banned players will be directly correlated to your source of traffic. If you target 'high roller casino' I'd expect you to see less charge backs than for pages that get traffic from 'bonus whoring' or 'blackjack card counting'. I'm not saying any of you are targeting such phrases, but I'm just using an extreme example to convey an idea.

If you have any questions about your Vegas Regal Casino stats, please let me know, I'd be happy to go over each of your players and see why each is banned.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson

 

[Guard Dog]

I am definitely not targeting bonus players. I, obviously, will not say who I am targetting though

I will say that the banned players are almost always redepositers and almost always over more than 1 month's time. My guess is they are not stolen-credit-card-users.

I did a complete set of a number of affiliate programs for a reason as well... this seems to be a Rival-Wide problem and I do not want to single out any particular program as 'the bad egg'.

 

[Nicolas-Johnson]

I understand your concern better now

Well, it is a Rival wide issue only for casinos that use the Rival Auto banning feature.

All the casinos that use that feature will have about the same sensitivity to banning players. That is why we don't use that feature. Maybe it would be more accurate to make these stats, one for casinos that auto ban players and other that don't use it?

After all, most here I think agree that the auto ban feature is over sensitive?

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson

 

[Guard Dog]

Well, it is a Rival wide issue only for casinos that use the Rival Auto banning feature.

All the casinos that use that feature will have about the same sensitivity to banning players. That is why we don't use that feature. Maybe it would be more accurate to make these stats, one for casinos that auto ban players and other that don't use it?

After all, most here I think agree that the auto ban feature is over sensitive?

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson

Ok - Bait taken. Who uses the auto-ban feature? Who doesn't?

 

[Engineer]

Rival wide, about 10.8% of all my players (depositing and non-depositing) have been suspended or banned. Of the depositing players, 10.4% have been suspended or banned. Those banned players accounted for 21.7% of all deposits in 2009.

Looking at my stats for CWC (3 RTG casinos), I see roughly 6.8% of depositors banned. C-Planet (3 RTG casinos) isn't quite as clear, because I don't know whether the "Bans" column refers to all players or only depositing players. If it refers to all signups, then the rate is 0.7%. If it refers to depositors only, then the rate is 13%. Casino Titan (RTG) ban rate is around 5.5%.

 

[Bonus Paradise]

I did already check some stats, will do more in the morning

I am clicking player deposit summary, ALL 2009
and then I note the number of total active players,
this does not mean they all did deposit, but still good to compare then.

Then i count the Susp and band.

I am also checking on countries,
found a few Canada SUSP, I think its interesting to check also on countries.

I checking at 400 Affs each brand, since its very interesting that i.e.
1 depositing german player is suspended at cocoa but not at paradise8, and so on

Back at ya tomorrow
Have all a nice rest of your day

 

[dendrite]

Some quick stats for the Rival casinos I promote:

In 2008, out of my top 20 depositors:
1 banned
7 suspended
(5 were from Canada)

In 2009 (so far), out of my top 20 depositors:
3 banned
0 suspended
(no Canadians)

 

[Nicolas-Johnson]

ok, I'm going to post some of our overall stats

Now I know casinos normally don't post these numbers, but I got clearance from our CEO to post the following information. I think this should be a pleasant surprise to anyone thinking of promoting us:

Bonus Banned Players 3,31%
Flat out Banned depositors 2,84%

Recurrent depositor 63,11%
Convert No Deposit sign ups to depositors 7,06%. This particular number is much higher, since a lot of sign ups are from multiple account players. Once we take this into consideration, our samples suggest we convert about 10% of all free chip players.

I don't think you will be able to find many casinos that boast these types of numbers. But I do think you can find, from just looking at player comments about us on the message boards, that this number shouldn't be a big surprise.

@ Guard Dog,
I wasn't trying to bait you. I was just trying to bring up a factor that should be taken into consideration. I don't know exactly which casinos don't auto ban, but I can tell you Vegas Regal Casino and Slot O Cash (unrelated to us), don't use the auto ban feature. If you feel Rivals are too trigger happy to ban, maybe the use of auto banning feature should be a thing to consider when choosing a Rival to promote. 8)

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson

 

[dendrite]

There are a few extra factors I think we need to take into consideration when looking at the stats:

Firstly, Most Rival Casinos place a big emphasis on their no deposit bonuses. So, I suspect that Rivals tend to attract a different type of player. This could be important when looking at the data Guard Dog mentioned in the first post when saying "the numbers of signed up, NON-Converted players is more than astounding, it's ridiculous."

Secondly, it is very difficult to compare Rivals to other groups that don't give the same depth of information.

For example, if I look at Casino Coins, I don't see any data regarding individual players, or how many have been banned or suspended. In fact, the data at Casino Coins is only ever half there at the best of times, so how can I begin to compare to my Rival casinos?

Another example, looking at c-planet - they don't provide any information on how many have been suspended. I can see that they banned 2 of my top 20 players in 2009, but for all I know they may have suspended another 10. I just don't know. They may prefer to suspend, rather than ban to make the stats look better....

So, imo, as it stands it's almost impossible to compare the groups.

If we had identical, in-depth data for all the different groups then that would help a lot

 

[Bonus Paradise]

okies before I go to bed here are some numbers
I am posting the few programs I checked,
I find it easy to compare hope this is ok.

Report for year 2009 – clicked to report player deposit summary
this stats are taken for ALL active players.

I have been surprised to not see more suspended or banned,
find the numbers not high.

Most active players at Vegas Regal
and then in order down,

REGAL AFFILIATES
DEAC: 1 - USA
BAND: 2 – 1 USA and 1 Finland
SUSP: 9 – 1 Canada – 4 USA – 1 Germany – 1 Netherlands – 2 Poland

SLOTOCASH
BAND: 1
SUSP: 2

PANTASIA GROUP
BAND: 1 - USA
SUSP: 11 – 3 Canada – 7 USA – 1 Germany

400 AFF GROUP
DA VINCIS GOLD
BAND: 0
SUSP: 8 – 1 Canada – 3 USA – 3 Germany - 1Austria

THIS IS VEGAS
BAND: 1 - USA
SUSP: 9 – 1 Canada – 2 USA – 2 Germany – 1 Austria – 2 Italy – 1 Poland

COCOA
BAND: 0
SUSP: 6 – 2 Canada – 3 USA – 1 Germany

PARADISE8
BAND: 0
SUSP: 2 – both from Germany

 

[Bonus Paradise]

opps calculated wrong , i not good with prozent
lol, brb

 

[Engineer]

Good point, dendrite. It is difficult to compare apples to apples here. Many of the programs I checked don't even show the number of suspended accounts. The only true "apples to apples" data we can really compare for all programs (with StatsRemote, for example) is the number of clicks, depositors, and the amount earned over the long term. And even then the data is just a rough guide that tells you which programs, in general, you should promote, and which programs you should kick to the curb.

Nicholas, nice post. I've seen your other posts around here, and it seems like you're actually serious about all of this, which is a breath of fresh air. I haven't signed up with your program yet; I'll take a closer look at it tomorrow.