Casinomeister removes Rushmore Accreditation

[lots0]

Bryan at casinomeister has removed Rushmore Casino from his list of accredited casinos.

My understanding is that he(Bryan) is doing this because a player was refused payment because he(the player) knowingly gave the casino false information about his address and had duplicate accounts.

This does not sound right... Since when does Bryan side with a player that gave false info and broke the T&C's???

Methinks there is more to this than meets the eye...

 

[KasinoKing]

This does not sound right... Since when does Bryan side with a player that gave false info and broke the T&C's???

It's not a question of "siding with the player", CM did spell out the exact reason for their removal:

On the other hand, it appears that investigation was conducted haphazardly, and that there was no room for players to challenge their findings. From a player's perspective, this is an unfair business practice. It is also unbecoming of an Accredited Casino. There have been several issues in the past concerning the Rushmore group, and that's about it for me. They have been removed from the Accredited section.

This closely follows C-Planet being removed as a sponsor here at AGD for poor affiliate relations (late payments).

Is the end in sight for the Rushmore Group?
Looks like it to me... could be more RTGs coming off my sites pretty soon...

KK

 

[lots0]

The investigation was haphazard? The casino hired several "respected investigators" and spent a lot of resources and time to find out what was going on.
The player hired one Hungarian private eye...
It sounds to me like a very through investigation.

It also appears, contrary to CM's statement, that the player was given the chance to protest the casinos findings. But what I don't understand is how the player had big enough balls to protest the fact he admitted to the casino that he gave them FALSE information from the moment he first opened an account with them? But then what do I know...

You know, if these guys at rushmore are really that bad and I see some real evidence of it, I will remove them from my site in a heart beat, but I just don't see it.
What I do see. so far, is a lot of smoke, mirrors, whispers and innunendo...

It's not a question of "siding with the player", CM did spell out the exact reason for their removal:

This closely follows C-Planet being removed as a sponsor here at AGD for poor affiliate relations (late payments).

Is the end in sight for the Rushmore Group?
Looks like it to me... could be more RTGs coming off my sites pretty soon...

KK

 

[lots0]

Also like to add that Bryan specifically allowed those two threads at CM about rushmore/cherryred's random jackpots to go waaay out line, with all kinds of unsubstantiated accusations being thrown toward rushmore.

Bryan NEVER would have let threads like that go on about any of 'his' accredited casinos. I know, I've seen him, and so have you, shut down threads for far less offenses than what was going on in those two threads.

But that is just my opinion... and what do I know... nothing, thats what. :-X

 

[greek39]

Methinks there is more to this than meets the eye...

The day I know everything please put me out of misery lol. In the past I suggested Rushmore would eventually turn black. Issues will creep up to the point where they would be discredited but not yet and not over this issue.

I don't like saying this but I must. Like yourself lots0 my feelings are telling me something does seem strange about this latest round of player non payment issues. I put forth the issue of player fraud over at the GPWA but no one bit into it.

The site I am slowly erecting must have some balance. Not only discussing Rogue Casinos but many other issues as well, The Rogue WebMasters, Casino Spam Masters, Player Rogue Rackets (I do believe they exist). So yeah player fraud is something I am slowly working on, not quite there yet.

I firmly believe player fraud is an fairly big issue but is rarely discussed. Also, it should be just as important as player non payment issues.

I also find a particular group who are really out to get CR. I find it strange, almost as if a collaboration of people are bribing the Casino to give good reputation points.

Strange? Yeah I must agree.

greek39

 

[KasinoKing]

Also like to add that Bryan specifically allowed those two threads at CM about rushmore/cherryred's random jackpots to go waaay out line, with all kinds of unsubstantiated accusations being thrown toward rushmore.

Bryan NEVER would have let threads like that go on about any of 'his' accredited casinos. I know, I've seen him, and so have you, shut down threads for far less offenses than what was going on in those two threads.

But that is just my opinion... and what do I know... nothing, thats what. :-X

FYI, Bryan was at the iGaming show in Prague at the end of May and then went on holiday to Florida for two weeks... all while those two threads were starting & growing.
He doesn't monitor the forum when he's on holiday... and I don't blame him!

KK

 

[Simmo!]

This wasn't the only reason they were removed - if you read his statement it is a culmination of issues and I think he feels generally uneasy recommending them to players. Also, note, he hasn't rogued them or anything, just stopped recommending them.

That's fair IMO. Aside from which he'd get castigated by some people if the casino stepped over the edge and he had not taken action over what seem to be a number of warning signs.

I also noticed the casino paid the player. Suggests to me they either made a mistake or they feel they can't fully back up their initial findings.

 

[nitro2]

This does not sound right... Since when does Bryan side with a player that gave false info and broke the T&C's???

Since when such a player does get paid? Of course because the complaint was filed through GG and not CM. Bailey is first already too old, second far too lazy and always vacationing and third not the sharpest too, therefore it's time to get rid of him ...

 

[Guard Dog]

Since when such a player does get paid? Of course because the complaint was filed through GG and not CM. Bailey is first already too old, second far too lazy and always vacationing and third not the sharpest too, therefore it's time to get rid of him ...

Completely uncalled for I wish you weren't such an asshole. You have been banned permanently now.

<rant>
This kind of childish behavior will not be tolerated at AGD. I don't care WHO you are, if you wish to degrade folks for any reason whatsoever - it won't be tolerated.

PLEASE act professional people! This has me a bit furious. We are all adults and professionals in this somewhat volatile industry, but in order to get things accomplished - we need to be level-headed and much nicer.

</rant>

 

[lots0]

FYI, Bryan was at the iGaming show in Prague at the end of May and then went on holiday to Florida for two weeks... all while those two threads were starting & growing.
He doesn't monitor the forum when he's on holiday... and I don't blame him!

KK

Like I said before, Bryan had knowledge of and specifically allowed those threads to proceed, according to Max... Bryan may have been on vacation, but he does not completely cut himself off. He would be stupid to do so and he is not stupid.
/// added /// Please don't misunderstand me, I am not trashing Bryan, I am sure he has his reasons for his behavior. But I thought his actions were note worthy and merited discussion.

According to the casino the player got paid because of the pressure from the forums and several forum 'crusaders'. I told them it was a mistake to pay... They thought it would just go away after they payed the blackmail... It didn't, all it did was make them look guilty and open the door even wider for more player fraud. A lesson for other casino managers.

 

[The_CPA]

Hi Folks. If you want to discover all the facts surrounding this matter, you can read this thread.

gamblingindustryassociation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2584&page=10

Warning it is long and it took us weeks and weeks to get Embalu paid.

It was in fact one of best collaborations between players, affiliates, and a casino that I have witnessed in nearly 11 years in this industry.

It pretty much went from the casino saying time and time again, "Discussion Ended, and that is our final decision", to getting this player his $7,444.00.

As for Bryan, if he made a mistake here, it was trusting that what the casino verbally told him was the truth. It wasn't,... and via the documentation from the player,.... a few stand up and stand out people went to bat for Embalu after seeing the documentation.

Caruso was pretty much the point man for the Player, Mojo for the Affiliates, and Steve from GamblingGrumbles, along with his boss Gramme finally convinced the owner to revisit the complaint.
From there it happened pretty fast.

Anyway, if interested, grab a beer and read that thread!;D

 

[Embalu]

Hi everyone.

Lots0, it seems that you are not familiar with the issue, so I'd like to clarify some points.

But what I don't understand is how the player had big enough balls to protest the fact he admitted to the casino that he gave them FALSE information from the moment he first opened an account with them?

No, I have never given false info to the casino and have not broken the T&C. Just the casino said this but it was not true and at the end they admitted their mistake and paid me in full. My data and address was also verified by the investigator when I met him face-to-face.

"the fact he admitted to the casino that he gave them FALSE information" - where did you read that?

The player hired one Hungarian private eye...

No, I have never hired an investigator. The casino hired a British investigator company and this company hired a Hungarian investigator in order to verify me. This investigator has fully verified me, but the casino initially ignored the verification.

If anyone is interested in the details of the story, here are some links. Sorry that the links are not clickable, this forum allows to post clickable links only when I have at least 10 posts.

Originally, I posted the detailed description of the issue here:
mb.winneronline.com/showthread.html?t=39248

The main discussion about the story, as The_CPA already posted here:
gamblingindustryassociation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2584

Another discussion in this forum:
gpwa.org/forum/rushmore-casino-steals-7444-no-adequate-explanation-given-188956.html

Warnings of webmasters about the issue:
online_casino_news.hundredpercentgambling.com/2010/05/rushmore-casino-theft-winnings-with-no.html
and
gambling-mojo-casino-community.socialgo.com/magazine/read/rushmore-casinoc-planet-warning_36.html

Complaint at askgamblers.com:
askgamblers.com/casino-complaints/rushmore-casino-doesnt-pay-and-ignores-e-mails-c83

Also, Steve Russo from gamblinggrumbles.com will update his report in a few days, I will post the link here when it is done.

 

[Ben C-planet]

Rushmore

Hi,

I would like to summarise the last crazy weeks, threads and wild accusations that have been flying around.

1. C-planet was removed as a platinum sponsor from AGD.
As the guy in charge of C-planet marketing , I have to agree with Andy, and I understand fully why this happened. We have been late on payments to affiliates, i can not deny this fact. I understand that timely payments is an important issue with a lot of affiliates. I have endeavored to rectify this problem, time will tell if I succeed.
I will add that Andy did not rogue us and we maybe late but we do pay all affiliates.

2. Player Fraud is a big issue that not many people want to tackle, the Hungarian player was unlucky to have deposited and had the same playing or similar playing patterns to a Hungarian fraud ring that hit us. There was also the issue of the address.
Could the investigation have been handled better ? in hindsight I would have to say yes. The matter could have been handled better and quicker.
However the player has now been paid in full.
The noise leading up to it and personal insults and wild accusations on some of the threads has just been ridiculous ( I am not reffering to AGD threads)
It seems some people on the forum can post what ever they like, even if it is a complete fabrication of the truth, if i dare to question them I am demonised.
I believe that some people play God on the forums and are completey removed from reality. Hence nobody from GPWA management or "Important Fiery Forum Regulars" attempted to meet with me in Prague, despite claims to the other affect. I did meet with Graeme from Gambling Grumbles, it was a pleasant and productive meeting.
3. The fact we are no longer accredited at Casinomeister is a shame, but if Bryan doesn't feel comfortable with us then , I can accept that. I do believe that there are many issues such as fraudulent players and also fraudulent affiliates, that are not covered on the forums. I also believe that certain forum members have too much power and get away with too much.
4. The Rushmore Group/c-planet - we are not the Devil Incarnate
We are a business with around 60 employees, we eat sleep breath the same as the rest of you. We even play 5 a side soccer on Tuesday evenings.
In the last 3 years we have paid out MILLIONS of dollars to players in winnings and we continue to do so.
We pay over a MILLION every month to affiliates ( sometimes late )
We have huge exposure in the SERPS and have over 3000 affiliate accounts.
Our software is not rigged, we do not make up jackpot winners, we do not give away 60% affiliate deals, we are not going bankrupt.

Can we improve the way we operate ? Yes

Thanks for reading and sorry if it was a bit long winded.

Regards

Ben

The investigation was haphazard? The casino hired several "respected investigators" and spent a lot of resources and time to find out what was going on.
The player hired one Hungarian private eye...
It sounds to me like a very through investigation.

It also appears, contrary to CM's statement, that the player was given the chance to protest the casinos findings. But what I don't understand is how the player had big enough balls to protest the fact he admitted to the casino that he gave them FALSE information from the moment he first opened an account with them? But then what do I know...

You know, if these guys at rushmore are really that bad and I see some real evidence of it, I will remove them from my site in a heart beat, but I just don't see it.
What I do see. so far, is a lot of smoke, mirrors, whispers and innunendo...

 

[nro]

Normal people tend to have a life and do not spend their entire pastime, over an eternity, chasing some money - unless they make a living out of it. A run of the mill gambler would stop to pursue it after 1-2 disappointments (mainly due to lack of knowledge how the "system" works, considering the amounts sometimes); Embalu's modus operandi is a dead give away for the sharp player/fraudster, because only these people are aware, that it sometimes makes sense building up pressure, even for years and basically try every possible venue.

The so called "player advocates" lack even rudimentary psychological knowledge, because alone with the above, it's already 90% clear, that something is not right here and if you add additional evidence to that, it's more like 99%.

 

[nro]

As of now it can be said with certainty, that something is not right here, because Embalu is quite vain (he is still concerned about his "image", even after getting the money), viewed the last posting long time ago - instantly after it has been written -, but didn't not respond to it. There must be also a force in his soul, which is stronger than his vanity and the name for it is bad conscience.

A response to this thread doesn't matter at this point, because if he were honest, it would have happened a while ago.

 

[Steve Russo]

Also, Steve Russo from gamblinggrumbles.com will update his report in a few days, I will post the link here when it is done.

The new report is now up. You can see it by going to gamblinggrumbles.com, and then clicking on "Rushmore" on the "Reports" menu.

Firstly, let me explain that as the manager of Gambling Grumbles, over a two month period I received information about this dispute directly from the casino and the player. I was also cc:ed on e-mails they wrote to each other as well as the attachments (such as bank statements and Moneybookers records) which were provided.

All of this proved conclusively that the player had in no way cheated. In fact, the casino now agrees with that.

Some other points:

1. The player did not hire an investigator as was stated in this thread. The casino hired a British investigator who, in turn, sub-contracted the Hungarian work to a local investigator. Both investigators supported the player.

2. The player did not use a fake address. Like many young people, he is living in a temporary apartment while starting out. He is keeping his mother's address as his legal domicile (for driving license and other purposes). The address he gave the casino was, therefore, his legal one.

3. Rushmore was, at first, certain that the player had cheated. Later, when it began to doubt that this was the case, it asked the player for proof of what he had been saying. When he provided that proof, it was honest enough to admit its mistake and to pay him every cent due him.

4. I do not doubt for a moment that if Rushmore was not completely convinced that the player had dealt honestly with it, it would have continued to refuse to pay. There is nothing in anything I saw that showed that the player (or anyone else) had "blackmailed" Rushmore -- or that Rushmore would have been weak enough to give into blackmail had it been tried.

Personally, I am very happy with the outcome of this dispute.

 

[lots0]

A lot of people I respect have sided with this player... I have not.

But this thread is not about this paticular player. This thread is about the actions taken at Casinomeister regarding Rushmore.

Side Note: As I am writting this, someone is attempting to hack my account at casinomeister.

 

[Guard Dog]

Thank you, Ben, for your response to the thread. I think it shows that C-Planet / Rushmore Group is definitely trying to do the right thing.

Ben is right - AGD did not rogue (nor was there any plan to) the casino or the affiliate program. There were a few months of late affiliate payments and that is it. They ALWAYS pay affiliates and players. I, personally, feel the group is excellent.

Had payments not been slightly delayed, they would still be a sponsor here.


CasinoMeister - They are not perfect. Neither is AGD or GPWA or any of us, really. Bryan has his own reason for the decision made, but he did not rogue the casino. He simply took them off the recommended list at the moment. Is the decision a good one? That is completely subjective.


I think the outcome here was exactly as it should be. The player received his money because it was found that he was not cheating the casino. This is a good win for everyone, IMO.

Good work the_CPA, Gambling Grumbles, Rushmore, and all who were involved to bring this player issue to a close.

 

[Simmo!]

Side Note: As I am writting this, someone is attempting to hack my account at casinomeister.

OT for a moment, but to respond - if you are finding it says you have used up your login attempts, its a server firewall bug, not a hacking attempt. Its being investigated and only affects a minority of users. PM me if you want to respond so as not to continue the derail.

Cheers

Simmo!

 

[essex]

The player did not use a fake address. Like many young people, he is living in a temporary apartment while starting out. He is keeping his mother's address as his legal domicile (for driving license and other purposes). The address he gave the casino was, therefore, his legal one.

First of all, young people tend not to have the money, to blow it away in a casino (... and the average income in Hungary is like 500-1000€ / month - at the lower end for the youngsters of course). When they do it nevertheless, then usually to generate some income out of it and his age suits perfectly the demographics of a certain forum. If he were like a 60 years old grandpa, or a 40 years old woman, the entire case could be viewed in a different light. Second, Hungary is a country with a lot of sharp players/fraudsters and combined with the above, the case is almost already clear, even without looking at the specifics. Finally, messing around with addresses, is a strong indication for a fraudster.

PLEASE act professional people! This has me a bit furious. We are all adults and professionals in this somewhat volatile industry, but in order to get things accomplished - we need to be level-headed and much nicer.

I think the outcome here was exactly as it should be.

The story had an happy end, because the fraudster got paid and the casino end up almost rogued and considering the amount of "level-headed professionals" involved, this is quite an accomplishment and exactly how player advocacy should work like.

(nro)