Buffalo Partners, the new referback-wagershare.

[AussieDave]

The casino is simply quarantining the player in future months, as any future netwin for that particular player is skewed as it is simply winnings. Again this does not apply to any other casino player which is why we do not consider this negative carryover.

Maybe this thread, because it's soooo long, has becoming convoluted.

The point I raised is...
My "High Roller" was fenced within a few days of August 2014. As soon as he'd won $10K he was quarantined.

EG - Vlad's $10K player was fenced before the EOM (August 2014).
However this -$10K win, was offset against his other players losses of $5K. Leaving his EOM total at -$5K.

Either a player is quarantined or they are not.

When a player is quarantined, (from the date a player activates this "High-Roller" Policy) their wins should have no influence on other players losses.

However going on Vlad's stats, the -$10K was offset against his other non-quarantined players +$5K, leaving him -$5K down for the August 2014.

When he should be (August EOM) +$5K for non-quarantined players and -$10K for his fenced "High-Roller".

It's either one (1) way or the other. Not BOTH!

 

[AussieDave]

Wanted to add... This is why I consider this a bogus "High-Roller" Policy.

Reiterating, when a player is "quarantined", their wins should have no affect on other players, regardless of the date.

Either a player is quarantined or they are not.

IMHO, Buffalo Partners are abusing this "Policy", which makes it, akin to negative carryover.

 

[Andrew - Buffalo Partners]

I am trying to wrap my head around how your "High Roller Policy" works...





Wasn't it said before that this negative balance is affecting the affiliate's account? So - is only the FIRST win creating a negative amount against other players?




As expected.

Hi Guard Dog and the AGD community,

To answer your questions:

Q: When does the player return to the affiliate's account?
A: The player will return to the affiliate’s account once the outstanding win amount has been played back.

Q: Wasn't it said before that this negative balance is affecting the affiliate's account? So - is only the FIRST win creating a negative amount against other players?
A: Like with any player that wins at the casino, your balance in that month is affected. Whether the win was 1k, 5k, or 10k, this will change your overall earnings in that current month.

It is important to note that this policy is in no way viewed as negative carry over for some key reasons. In future months after the month the high roller occurred, the player is quarantined against himself. Any outstanding amount from the specific high roller CANNOT be passed on to any other player who might also be a high roller. Even more important to note is that the amount CANNOT be passed on to any other casino players who are on your account. Therefore should there be a 100k winner who never plays again, your account WILL NOT sit at -100k.

I really do hope that the above clears things up.

 

[AussieDave]

Like with any player that wins at the casino, your balance in that month is affected. Whether the win was 1k, 5k, or 10k, this will change your overall earnings in that current month.

BUT if the win is = or > the "High-Roller" Policy, then a player is "quarantined", even if it's the 1'st of the month.

How can these wins be off-set against other players losses in the month the "High-Roller" has been fenced.

If I lock a door, I can't enter (open it), without 1'st unlocking.

Hence either a player is "quarantined" (locked away/separated) from other players or they are not!

Why are "quarantined" player win(s), offset against other players losses?

Albeit it's not negative carryover per se.
However it's certainly negative flow-over; wash-over or numerous other semantic terms, which directly impact non "quarantined" players.

 

[AussieDave]

In future months after the month the high roller occurred, the player is quarantined against himself.

There are three (3) AGD members in this thread, who had players "quarantined" before the August EOM 2014.

Even more important to note is that the amount CANNOT be passed on to any other casino players who are on your account.

In the preceding months, sure that's true.

However in the month the player was "quarantined", this rule, does not apply. Instead ALL PLAYERS are affected by this "High-Roller" Policy.

 

[Guard Dog]

Hi Guard Dog and the AGD community,

To answer your questions:

Q: When does the player return to the affiliate's account?
A: The player will return to the affiliate’s account once the outstanding win amount has been played back.

Q: Wasn't it said before that this negative balance is affecting the affiliate's account? So - is only the FIRST win creating a negative amount against other players?
A: Like with any player that wins at the casino, your balance in that month is affected. Whether the win was 1k, 5k, or 10k, this will change your overall earnings in that current month.

It is important to note that this policy is in no way viewed as negative carry over for some key reasons. In future months after the month the high roller occurred, the player is quarantined against himself. Any outstanding amount from the specific high roller CANNOT be passed on to any other player who might also be a high roller. Even more important to note is that the amount CANNOT be passed on to any other casino players who are on your account. Therefore should there be a 100k winner who never plays again, your account WILL NOT sit at -100k.

I really do hope that the above clears things up.

ok, I think I 'get it'. If a 'High Roller' wins $100k in August... then the player is quarantined, but the -$100k sticks there until the end of the month, correct? So - the following example would fit?

Example: Assuming revshare of 30% and no fees just to make it simple

August
Player #1 - lost $10k, revshare = $3,000
Player #2 - lost $2k, revshare = $600
Player #3 - Won $100k (Quarantined)

Revshare = $3,000 + $600 - $30k = -$26,400k (no payment due)

September
Player #1 - lost $1k, revshare = $300
Player #2 - lost $4k, revshare = $1,200
Player #3 - Lost $50k (Quarantined)

Revshare = $300 + $1,200 = $4,200k (payment due)

Quarantined Player has $50k more to lose before going back into the affiliate's account.


Is this how it works?

 

[inspiration]

IMO it is this :

in August you paid for the NCO of this highroller.
so the net loss as calculated = 100,000 - 12,000 = 88,000 (balance end of August )
end of September balance would be : 88,000 - 50,000 = 38,000.

Starpartners HR policy would be like this :

August : $3600 payment / highroller balance :100,000
September : $1500 payment / highroller balance :50,000

This means if the HR does not play it back at the Buffalo brands back you lost $3600 in commissions.

IMO this is another cost saving policy next to the other 3 casinos that are still open for players but we do not get paid for new signups.

I do not understand why we were cut off for marketing as these 3 brands are still doing business as usual and what is the difference if a player decides to sign up thru my affiliate link or direct hit / search engine visit ?

IMO the only advantage is that BP does not have to pay the affiliate.

 

[AussieDave]

Just saying...
These HR t&c's should be crystal clear (KISS Principle - Keep it simple stupid).

Instead they are contrived, ambiguous and contradictory.

30% rev share

August 2014
# Player1 - losses $ 1,000
# Player2 - losses $ 2,000
# Player3 - wins $100,000 (-$100,000 - quarantined 1'st of August)

Rev share cal: $300 + $600 subtracted by -$100,000 = -$99,100 (no commission paid)

September 2014
# Player1 - losses $ 1,000
# Player2 - losses $ 2,000
#Player3 losses $50,000 (- $49, 100 - still quarantined)

Rev share cal: $300 + $600 = $900 commission paid.

 

[Andrew - Buffalo Partners]

Hi all,

I’m going to provide some examples following the above examples to demonstrate how it works:

Firstly, let’s say on one brand, a player generates negative netwin of $100,000, while the rest of the player base on that brand generates positive netwin of $50,000.

The amount that we will recover from that player in future months is $50,000, not $100,000. In a case where the player never plays again, then we never recover those funds, yet the affiliate will still be starting the next month/s on zero, meaning that we take the knock for the -$50,000.

Ultimately the High-Roller Policy is structured in such a way that it is more beneficial to the affiliate than to the affiliate program for this reason.

Using the last example giving by Bet4You, the calculations would be as follows:

August 2014
# Player1 - loses $ 1,000
# Player2 - loses $ 2,000
# Player3 - wins $100,000 (-$97,000 would be quarantined – the initial month of the quarantine being August)

Rev share cal: $1,000 netwin + $2,000 netwin subtracted by -$100,000 netwin = -$97,000 (no commission paid)

September 2014
# Player1 - loses $ 1,000
# Player2 - loses $ 2,000
# Player3 losses $50,000 (- $47,000 is still quarantined)

Rev share cal: ($1,000 netwin + $2,000 netwin) * 30% = $900 commission paid.

For an affiliate who has a large player base contributing to their commission, they are unlikely to be affected by the high-roller policy, as other players are likely to absorb the big win. In these cases, they will earn revenue share on any balance that the big winners plays back in subsequent months. For example:

August 2014
# Players 1 to 99 - lose $200,000
# Player100 wins $100,000 ($0 quarantined)

Rev share cal: ($200,000 netwin subtracted by -$100,000 netwin = $100,000 netwin) * 30% = $30,000 commission paid.

September 2014
# Players 1 to 99 - lose $200,000
# Player100 - loses $100,000

Rev share cal: ($200,000 netwin + $100,000 netwin) * 30% = $90,000 commission paid.

To reiterate our high-roller policy again:

High-Roller Policy

7.14 In any given month, if a Customer generates a negative net win of at least $10,000 he/she will be deemed to be, for the purposes of this section, a 'High-Roller'.
7.15 If the aggregate Net Win for the Affiliate, in that month, for a Merchant Brand is negative $2,000 or greater, then the High-Roller policy as set out hereunder, will apply:
7.15.1 The negative Net Win generated by the High-Roller will be carried forward and offset against future Net Win generated by that High-Roller;
7.15.2 The negative balance carried forward cannot be set-off against other Customer's Net Win;
7.15.3 The negative balance carried forward cannot be greater than the total aggregate negative Net Win for the Affiliate, for that month;
7.15.4 The negative balance of a High-Roller will be reduced by future positive Net Win that they generate in subsequent months;
7.15.5 A negative balance will not be increased by future negative Net Win unless the High-Roller meets the qualifying criteria in subsequent months.

We understand that for some affiliates it can be complicated on their accounts, in which cases we are quite willing to talk with you and explain the situation specific to your own account.

Please contact us directly if you have any queries.

Thanks

Andrew

 

[Guard Dog]

Thank you for completely clarifying the process.

 

[Perc]

That's all great Andrew, but the problem is that your high roller policy is worse for affiliates than high roller policies at many other programs.

It may have been the same policy for 10 years, but when I had read it before, I assumed it was the same as most other high roller policies I have seen.

I'll use pretty much the same examples, but I'm going increase the losses for Player1 and Player2:

August 2014
# Player1 - loses $ 10,000
# Player2 - loses $ 20,000
# Player3 - wins $100,000 (-$100,000 would be quarantined)

Rev share cal: ($10,000 netwin + $20,000 netwin subtracted by nothing because player is fenced) * 30% = $9,000 commission paid - versus $0 with Buffalo's high roller policy

September 2014
# Player1 - loses $ 10,000
# Player2 - loses $ 20,000
# Player3 losses $50,000 (- $50,000 is still quarantined)

Rev share cal: ($10,000 netwin + $20,000 netwin) * 30% = $9,000 commission paid. - versus $9,000 with Buffalo's high roller policy

Total commissions paid for Aug and Sept = $18,000
Total commissions paid for Aug and Sept = $9,000

As you can clearly see, the more common method is better for affiliates.

What does this mean to us, and how does it affect Buffalo Partners? Well we'd obviously rather send high rollers elsewhere if it's going to affect all of our other players in that first month at that casino. I know I would rather see big winners fenced properly and immediately, and make $9k in August rather than nothing.

With this more common method of high roller fencing, the amount is usually lower than $10k, I've seen as low as $3k (so anyone that wins $3k or more is immediately fenced / quarantined until they lose it back).

The only reason any programs have no negative carryover, is because other programs do it - it's all about being competitive in the market. The reason most have a high roller policy, is to protect the program from paying large amounts of money out of their own pocket due to having no NCO. That high roller policy also needs to be in line with others to stay competitive. The reason people are getting upset about your high roller policy, is because most other programs do it better, and many people like me probably assumed it was like most others.

Maybe it's time to consider a change to that policy? It's a competitive market and your competition is doing it better, changing that policy would make good business sense.

Edited to add: With the current BP policy, if the high roller keeps playing, things will equal out over time. That doesn't really help a small affiliate who may not be able to feed his/her family in Sept because they got $0 for August (just a theoretical situation).

 

[Perc]

Sorry for the double post, didn't want to add more to my last one...

It was mentioned that having more players contributing reduces the chances of being affected by the high roller policy, and that got me thinking about the biggest winner I've had (with a different program).

I had a player win $350,000 one month. If it was with BP/RB and I had 100 other players lose $200,000 that same month, and the high roller never came back, man would I have been pissed off. Now that worries me, and kinda makes hope I don't send you any high rollers, because it could happen.

There is potential there for an affiliate to lose many thousands of dollars, which they would be paid if they sent that player somewhere else. <-- That is the point I'm trying to make as clear as possible.

What actually happened, since it was with a program with a better/normal high roller policy, that player was fenced and I was paid for my other players' losses. That high roller lost it all back in a couple months and kept on playing, all was good.

 

[AussieDave]

Perc they were both excellent posts

The point is, "other" programs have High Roller Policies.
But as soon as a player is "quarantined" (isolated from other players), their wins/losses have no affect on other players.

We work hard for programs and most of us here, have been long time, loyal affiliates to Referback. While they (RB) may have had this HR policy, I can't recall ever being stung with it, until this merger. And then within a few days of Buffalo Partners opening, whamo!

Seems Buffalo Partners wants their bread buttered on both sides...just sayin!

As I've said early on in this thread, this action, imo is not akin to how Reberback does business BUT it is most certainly is how Wagershare operated.

 

[CygX1]

This excellent thread helps me to understand how much traffic I intend to send these casinos in the future. If this high winner a.k.a. high winner term is a fair term for affiliates, it should be possible to just remove it from specific accounts upon request.

 

[admin]

A reminder is sent to all affiliate managers.

 

[rogerc]

We have to point out again that this rule is over 10 years old, and the idea of making our affiliates pay is not the idea here. The casino is simply quarantining the player in future months, as any future netwin for that particular player is skewed as it is simply winnings. Again this does not apply to any other casino player which is why we do not consider this negative carryover. Should the player who has had the huge win never play again, then this amount will never come off against other players. The high roller policy is also only enforced on winners of 10k or greater. This affects a minority of players, and for any players who win anything under that amount, there is no policy enforced and no quarantine set up.

If anyone has any questions about their specific account, please contact Buffalo Partners support (support@buffalopartners.com) or your account manager.

 

[rogerc]

RE.If anyone has any questions about their specific account, please contact Buffalo Partners support (support@buffalopartners.com) or your account manager.

I'm trying to find where my traffic is coming from but the reports only say "Default Affiliate Campaign", I have appx. ten different campaigns so all of the traffic cannot be coming from the same source ie."Default Affiliate Campaign"

All I get when trying to use your webform is “Your email could not be sent. Please try again at a later stage.”
Past emails to aff' manager have gone unanswered.
rogerc

 

[AussieDave]

Who was your Aff Manager rogerc?

I was told the same thing...

However impossible to get answers, when your Aff Manager goes silent, when I started asking difficult questions.

I hold no malice toward Andrew or my AM, they're just doing their jobs.

Seems other than official Buffalo speakers, the rest of their employees have been gagged... just sayin!

 

[rogerc]

Who was your Aff Manager rogerc?

I was told the same thing...

However impossible to get answers, when your Aff Manager goes silent, when I started asking difficult questions.

I hold no malice toward Andrew or my AM, they're just doing their jobs.

Seems other than official Buffalo speakers, the rest of their employees have been gagged... just sayin!

Sorry but cannot remember ( Jan Oksen or Errika Pontikaki ) or even someone else as changes take place on a regular basis. Also I have other people asking me if we have been paid yet and seems that no one has yet, I put it down to the fact that here in Aust. we are 10 hours in front. Still no go with their webform for info.

 

[AussieDave]

here in Aust. we are 10 hours in front. Still no go with their webform for info.

I'm in Aus too and tbh that shouldn't matter.
Payments, least when RB did them, left the processor around 1pm South African time (8pm AEST) and usually arrive in Neteller two or so hours later.