Why Affiliates Distrust Affiliate Programs!

Discussion in 'General Casino Affiliate Area' started by bonustreak, Dec 3, 2015.

  1.  
    KasinoKing

    KasinoKing Player turned affiliate.

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    Bloody hell - that's a bit steep for the "smaller" affiliates like me!
    I do see your point though - it's the high-rollers who are more likely to be de-tagged.

    I suppose several of us could chip-in smaller amounts to give 1 test player a big starting pot - but then how do we decide who's affy link to test?

    KK
     
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  2.  
    AussieDave

    AussieDave 17 years & still going!

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    While we may not have the actually program/casino data, gut instinct and as you've explained CBG, A/B testing speaks volumes.
     
  3.  
    AE-Martyn

    AE-Martyn Affiliate Program Representative

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    Thanks for your comment Bet4You, I just wanted to clarify and show that I/we fully understand why there is the lack of trust that exists in the industry. I get it and it's just something we have to deal with, hopefully reputation precedes us. :)
     
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  4.  
    AussieDave

    AussieDave 17 years & still going!

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    We ALL know shaving and what not goes on... However what about bogus player accounts etc.
    • Bogus accounts added to reduce earnings.
    • Ridiculously high comps given to players.
    There are so many ways programs can shaft partners without having to steal tagged players... just sayin!
     
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    AussieDave

    AussieDave 17 years & still going!

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    Sorry for hogging the thread... But I almost forgot this ACE.

    Back in 2013 I raised concerns with my AM (David G) at FA. These related to excessive deposit comps being handed out willy nilly to players. The sweet spot for MGS comps is between 18 - 25% max. So seeing players receiving up to 75% caught my attention. I was particularly concerned about a HUGE whale account. At first he tried to fob me off but I pressured on to the point where I'd back him into a corner. To cut a long story short, he ended up sending me an xls spreadsheet which contained ALL the data for this HR.

    That data was what FA see, not what affiliates see.
    My wife is a bookkeeper, she ran the data and it didn't add up. My accountant ran the data and again there were discrepancies.

    I phone to discuss this with David G but he was away. Because I knew the CFO at FA/FL (Joffery [spelling?]), I tried him but he was away too. Ended up speaking with someone else I knew in the accounts Dept at Osiris Trading (aka FA/FL). Turns out the spreadsheet David G sent was incomplete. So this guy sends me the full, unadulterated edition.

    Yes I still have that xls on one of my back HDD's.

    We ran the figures again.
    There was no doubts this time, bonuses given to the whale, which FA claimed had been withdrawn as winning, had in fact been played back to the casino. We're not talking chump change here, it was a LOT of cash, money which was deducted and reduced commission payments.

    I tried to sort this out with FA but I was given a load of bollocks excuses and eventually the cold shoulder.
     
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  6.  
    CygX1

    CygX1 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    RTG themselves have been conducting business with the lowest of the low since well more than a decade. They have proven to give less than a crap about customers on countless occasions and one should not expect them to be much better when it comes to affiliates.
     
  7.  
    AussieDave

    AussieDave 17 years & still going!

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    I've know you since you started out at BetFred many, many moons ago. Whilst we've had our disagreements Martyn, you've always stood by and upheld your word. That's a very rare commodity, not only in our industry but in general life these days. So regardless of anything else, you are imho one of a handful of trusted and well respected AM's.

    </ebsuyb>
     
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  8.  
    AE-Martyn

    AE-Martyn Affiliate Program Representative

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    Where do I send the check to?

    Seriously though, thank you very much.
     
  9.  
    AussieDave

    AussieDave 17 years & still going!

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    lol... you can buy me a beer if your ever out this way... a BIG beer :D
     
  10.  
    AE-Martyn

    AE-Martyn Affiliate Program Representative

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    I'm outside now!
     
  11.  
    bonustreak

    bonustreak Administrator Staff Member

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    I can vouch that this is something that was talked about once when I had player win huge BUT in the end Martyn talked me into waiting to see about the player possibly playing the funds back, I waited and that is exactly what happened.
     
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  12.  
    AE-Martyn

    AE-Martyn Affiliate Program Representative

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    Phew! :)
     
  13.  
    frankcolt

    frankcolt Member

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    Bet4you - That is the exact same thing that happened to me at FA - EXACTLY - I was paying for my big players to go on cruses, trips and the comps out of control. One time i set up a phone meeting with the head of affiliate managers at FA and he told me he didn't know what I was talking about because he wasn't in front of a computer and couldn't look it up - I almost lost my S#!T .



    then they brought in the high roller clause and 2 huge players went missing.
     
  14.  
    AussieDave

    AussieDave 17 years & still going!

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    I spoke with Anthony P (manager of FA aff program at the time). Was told, go to eCOGRA and ask them to run an audit on the account. I said, I didn't trust them either. Besides, the spreadsheet data proved there was funky-accounting going on with comps. Anyway of that 45 min conversation, Anthony yelled at me for about 30 min. In the end I hung up.

    Knowing most of upper management at FA/FL/Osiris Trading et al, I took my grievance along with the dodgy data to the 2'nd in charge, Chad B. He's always treated me very well and respectfully. We ended up speaking as well. He ran figures and calculations past me but we're talking not talking chump change here. And what was going on with my account, was most likely going on with other aff accounts across the board. So as much as he'd treated me well, fact is, his alliances lay with FA/FL/Osiris Trading and not me.

    In the end I went public with it. What I found pointed to FA shaving affiliates on a grand scale. But I'm not in the "clique" and the slur campaign done against my character (AussieDave) over the years, did me no favours either. In the end it was ignored and was swept under the carpet, as per usual.

    Thanks to Bonustreak for bringing this Article to AGD and many Kudos to Otto for writing it. It's time the cupboard doors were swung-wide-open!

    There's a handful of trustworthy and ethical programs/casinos but most of this industry, in one way or another, is crooked as a dog's hind leg.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
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  15.  
    cassaon888

    cassaon888 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Many thanks for the kind note. I sincerely believe as a collective we can accomplish great things.
     
  16.  
    Guard Dog

    Guard Dog Guard Dog Staff Member

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    I'm up for anything we just have keep the discussion going and find a way to do this. I'm honestly not sure how as I had given it a LOT of thought many years ago. We would either have to have the BIG affiliates involve or charge programs a massive fee for us to audit them properly. It's a tough pill to swallow on both ends to shell out the kind of money needed to prove shaving. Even when we prove it, I can guarantee programs saying things like: oh, we found a problem in our tracking system. (which, of course, we won't believe.... but some will)
     
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    AussieDave

    AussieDave 17 years & still going!

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    See that's the problem we're all faced with.... I have hard, factual proof that FA were running dodgy ledgers. My wife (a bookkeeper) and my business accountant both said the data didn't add up. At that point, I had no doubt FA after seeing this evidence, would have paid out the loss of commission due. Not in wildest dreams did I think they (FA) would close the door on me.

    Thing is though, their in South Africa and I'm in Australia. Apart from taking legal action, what else could I do... A BIG fat nothing. Affiliate programs know this and that's why they run the gauntlet... Even if an affiliate takes them to court, the cost would be absurd, not mention they have deep pockets and would likely string the case out so long that you'd run out of cash before it got to court...

    What should have been done (I said this back then) in the Grand Prive` sting... Affiliates affected should have ALL banded together and taken a class action lawsuit out against GP and MGS. That would have sent a clear message to any other program thinking about doing similar dodgy acts....

    Think how many programs have turned bad since GP and MGS got away with this scam.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
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  18.  
    Guard Dog

    Guard Dog Guard Dog Staff Member

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    So - how do we get beyond this point in the discussions? The Grand Prive thing actually worked quite well with no class action suit. We all banded together and stopped promoting them. As a result they had a VERY difficult time. I think we can shut down programs easy enough if we band together, but it takes a lot to make us a cohesive unit.

    Where do we start? Auditing? Forcing them (somehow) to use a specific affiliate software that tracks everything and gives us an API so that AGD or another can track conversions, deposits, withdrawals, and other metrics?

    There has to be a way...
     
  19.  
    cassaon888

    cassaon888 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Here's my two cents:

    1. Request that the software providers furnish us with their stats so that we can corroborate it with that of the affiliate programs'. Then again this would spell the 'end' of affiliate programs since we're getting the stats directly from the source. I've been told it's a costly process to set this up. Affiliates can contribute and work at a lower rev. share, 15% instead of ''30%+. I wouldn't mind working on a smaller revenue share if the stats are true.

    2. As you said, the other alternative is to get the big affiliates on board. Maybe they can convince the software vendors to provide us with the original stats.

    3. Don't work with programs that's not licensed in white listed jurisdictions (Alderney, Gibraltar, Isle of Man, Malta, or the UK).
     
  20.  
    cassaon888

    cassaon888 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Another important aspect is to find out the ratio percentage wise; how many players affiliates refer to an operator as opposed to direct sign ups.

    Obviously this will differ from casino to casino and from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Operators licensed in the UK are not that reliant on affiliates. They have deep pockets and can afford large advertising campaigns. As such affiliate referrals might be less.

    The point I'm trying to make here, if affiliates refer on average say 25%+ (might be way less or more) of a casinos' player base we can request the original stats reports from the vendors themselves.

    Also what concerns me is that many affiliate managers/online casinos run their own portals. They have access to our stats, this is why high-value players keep on disappearing. Hell, I've never seen this level of corruption in any other industry before.

    Black listing programs helps but it does not eradicate the problem. The owners simply shut down the casino, start a new one and the process just keeps on repeating itself. Before we sign up with an operator we must request the names of the owners/managers.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
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