Thinking about quitting the Biz

[lots0]

Like many other affiliates, I have been getting screwed right and left lately.

Excessive winners, whales gone missing, worrying about getting paid every month, worse than sucky conversions and having to fight like hell, against people that fight really dirty for every single pageview and click.

On top of all that and I have had a reduction in income somewhere around 90% the last few months. No change in traffic(actually traffic has went up, a lot)... just a change in income across the board.

This business has always been risky, but now IMO the odds are really stacked against the affiliate and it's becoming a no win situation for guys like me.

I haven't completely made up my mind yet, but if by the end of this month things don't get way better, I am just going to pull the plug on everything that has to do with online gambling.

Not selling, mind you, just pulling the plug...

 

[fccash]

I feel the same way - I have taken an absolute beating for 4 months now and with Christmas fast approaching a family to support with 3 kids I'm almost sickened. Commissions are dismal even non exsistant due to the ewallet fiasco, disappearing players, whales that have mysteriously vanished, rogue affiliate programs and unreliable payments. Sorry to sound like a Scrooge but, I'm Tired - Exhausted by constantly trying to support an industry that seems hell bent on screwing me on a monthly basis.

 

[KasinoKing]

I know how you guys feel!

2008 was great, then 2009 a near disaster. Things looked like they were VERY slowly picking up again in 2010, but that recovery has reversed over the last few months.

It's definitely very grim out there - but why?
Are we being ripped-off more and more, or is it something else?
As a player myself, I only deposit if I'm getting a half-decent bonus (wagering = Bonus x 30 max & cashable) - but those are pretty rare these days; I am definitely playing less now than I used to - maybe everyone is in the same boat...?

KK

 

[dominique]

You know, I also have more traffic, more conversions off my site (clicks) and more signups at the casinos. But revenues are down considerably.

I have been blaming the economy for the exessive winners (and they are exessive!), I think when people win nowadays they don't just withdraw a part and buy something frivolous and play the rest back, they withdraw all and pay the mortgage.

But on the casino level, why are conversions so much lower? Are people there to gamble and then they can't deposit?

Or is there something more sinister going on like many are inferring these days?

I think it's likely a mix, some programs are honest as they have proven to be over the years, but they have processing issues. Others are stealing players ....

I remember times being similair in 2005/2006, in the UIGEA era. But that time it did go away fairly quickly, and after 10 years in this industry I am hesitant to throw in the towel.

 

[bonusgeek]

I am pretty sick of this business myself but I am not throwing in the towel. Instead I am restructuring things to focus more on brands like Bet365, big names who I trust 110% to let me grow and keep all players tracked to me. And when I see the industry a little more stable I am going to put more of an effort back into it.

One thing I know is if you can make money in the online gambling industry - chances are you can make money in almost any industry. So with a gazillion online products to promote, I am looking to diversify. I know there is low hanging fruit in almost every niche, just gotta find it. I think the warrior forum is a good place to get your creative juices flowing.

 

[Daera]

For affiliates like me that rely on the U.S. for most of my players, I think processing, or lack of, is what's hurting my pocket the most. Especially so over the last 60 days.

I think a lot of U.S. players that could deposit before now, but found it very difficult to receive winnings if they won, stopped playing. IMO, depositing and especially withdrawing has become so complicated for U.S. players that many have thrown in the towel when it comes to online gambling.

 

[Eugene]

the worst part of this situation is that affiliate program almost never tell you that they can't process the deposits. and one thing we can do is trying to guess what is going on

 

[static]

Not what I want hear, I am just getting into the gambling niche myself.

As a newcomer coming from promoting other niches gambling still looks way better than just about everything else. Despite (from what you guys are saying) what appears to be shaving on a massive scale and all around shenanigans, the potential to earn is still incredible. Also, the gambling affiliate community is suprisingly warm.

Something that is becoming more important - no essential, for affiliates in all industries, especially those who depend on organic search, is being able to scale. A handful of sites isn't enough. You need to keep putting out fresh properties whether they are money sites or for your link network. You can't afford to spend time writing content yourself and putting sites together by hand unless you are just starting out. That kind of thing needs to be outsourced. Get familiar with a cms and never touch html again, just buy templates. Think a casino is shaving? You need to be able to swap their links out across all your sites in 10 minutes.

 

[JackTen]

I feel for you guys. I've felt the same way.

In 2009, a few of my biggest affiliate programs retroactively changed T&Cs and that hurt a lot.

Then in 2010, the French market problems.. I had a lot of french players.

Luckily for me, I've diversified in the past 2 years and I now cover many industries, but it still hurts.

What I've learned over time in the gambling industry is to go with safe programs. There's a short list of programs that you can trust 100%, at least while some specific affiliate managers are there.

It's crazy how horribly managed this industry is though. Compare all these ridiculously unpredictable gambling affiliate networks with, say, Clickbank. You hear very few people complain about Clickbank not paying them. Some networks would gain large market shares easily if they demonstrated they were reliable.

 

[slotplayer]

the industry really blows now.

 

[Nicolas-Johnson]

Well, I will not lie; this industry has become much harder.

But having said that, it has become much bigger with plenty of opportunity.

This industry is in for a time of consolidation. And that means slimming out of the population. But within that, there is big opportunities for those who know how to position themselves correctly.

Here are some considerations:

- Processing:
We are at an all time record of difficulty in processing for the US market. This means many of you have lost customer bases you had sent to properties that no longer can process their transactions.
The flip side? There are now droves of players looking for new sites that can process their Credit Cards. They are likely going to find an affiliate site for information before depositing at a new brand. Will your site be the one that provides them with this information?

- Properties Shutting down
Same as the processing issue. Some will lose, others will win. It is up to you which side you end up on.

- More competition
True, there are more gambling affiliates than ever before. But that means more people you can link exchange with, more numbers on the affiliate side to pressure operators into offering more affiliate friendly T&Cs, etc.

And it isn't like it is only the competition that is growing, more people gamble online every day, so you there is growing supply and demand.

- Management
Yes, many places are badly run. No doubt. But there are places that are run well. This can be a competitive advantage or disadvantage. Align yourself with the right people and reap the rewards. Align yourself with the wrong groups and suffer the consequences.

- Lower player value
Yes, customers move around more now a days due to high competition between operators offering every more juicy incentives to join them. So you will earn less per customer you send to each brand. But it is now easier to send the same customer to multiple brands and reap from each one.



Basically, what I think I'm trying to say is that yes, bricks are being thrown into the industrie's windows. But there is opportunity. As I've seen dominique quote:

A successful person is one who can lay a firm foundation with the bricks that others throw at him

 

[lots0]

@Nicolas-Johnson

As an affiliate manager trying to recruit new affiliates to your program, I can understand why your blowing smoke up everyones ass. But as someone that has been around a while, I find your spiel really tired and lame.

Lets be honest.. This Biz is going downhill faster than a ski racer.
Don't believe me... just read ALL the other affiliates posts in ALL the gambling forums who are crying about not making any money.

Some people like Dom have a lot of years in the biz and don't want to let go... Although I do remember Dom selling all her websites right after the UGIEA was passed... wink wink...

The flip side? There are now droves of players looking for new sites that can process their Credit Cards.

That is not what I hear players saying. I hear them say they are tired of their bank calling them about 'bad' gambling transactions, having to jump Thur many many hoops just to cashout then wonder if they are going to get paid or their bank account closed... I won't even go into the deposit problems that are an ongoing problem that is only getting worse.

The banks are now required to report any transaction of 2k or over that are 'suspicious' to the IRS, US DOJ and Homeland Security. Any payment from a known gambling clearing house is 'suspicious' by definition.

I don't know about you guys, But I can't continue to run a business where just about every transaction is being reported to the government before I even know about them.

 

[Nicolas-Johnson]

@Nicolas-Johnson

As an affiliate manager trying to recruit new affiliates to your program, I can understand why your blowing smoke up everyones ass.

Actually I was saying it as someone who has been in the industry a while. If I was trying to recruit affiliates I would be searching google, visiting sites and asking for chance to try us out. But I wanted to participate in the conversation instead. Please hear me out as such, and don't just disregard me as propaganda.

But as someone that has been around a while, I find your spiel really tired and lame.

I'm sorry to hear that.

Lets be honest.. This Biz is going downhill faster than a ski racer.
Don't believe me... just read ALL the other affiliates posts in ALL the gambling forums who are crying about not making any money.

Did I deny there is a thinning out of the numbers? Read my post well and you might not find it so tiring. You are right, plenty of affiliates don't make money. But it is because they have not positioned themselves to do so. Plenty of affiliates do make money; and are expanding. Look at GoneGambling. Look at Slots.com. Look at gambling.com. Go to google and look up searches like online casino, slots, online slots, free slots, sports betting, etc.

Some people like Dom have a lot of years in the biz and don't want to let go... Although I do remember Dom selling all her websites right after the UGIEA was passed... wink wink...

That is not what I hear players saying. I hear them say they are tired of their bank calling them about 'bad' gambling transactions, having to jump Thur many many hoops just to cashout then wonder if they are going to get paid or their bank account closed... I won't even go into the deposit problems that are an ongoing problem that is only getting worse.

The banks are now required to report any transaction of 2k or over that are 'suspicious' to the IRS, US DOJ and Homeland Security. Any payment from a known gambling clearing house is 'suspicious' by definition.

I don't know about you guys, But I can't continue to run a business where just about every transaction is being reported to the government before I even know about them.

Please stop taking this attitude of 'us against them'. It is harmful. The tougher the time, the more the need to band together.

Try to re-read what I said.

It is a tough time for the industry; and profitability has been lowered across the board. But, overall, there is plenty of opportunity.

First, there is a HUGE % of the population that plays online VS say 2000. So many more people know, and accept online gambling as a form of entertainment. I mean, think of all the people that bet sports, bingo, poker, casino, skill games, betting exchanges, backgamon, scratch cards, lottery, live dealer and other such products. This industry has gone from something people associated to spam, to a mainstream product.

So my perspective is that relative to the growth in popularity this industry has enjoyed, these recent negative events, which aren't as frequent as you necessarily are describing, with the right properties, aren't so dire.

Furthermore, think of the amount of searches on Google for online gambling related phrases when Harrah's and co start pushing their HUGE campaigns. Someone will be positioned for that.

In every market there are short-term down terms, even signiticant ones. During the 70s the DOW lost 40% very fast. People were very angry at it being so low. Plenty of people were burnt and dropped out. But that 'low' was when it went from 1000 to 600. Today it stands above 11,000.

And I will say this industry is not for people looking to make a short term buck. But many people have become rich on this industry, many people continue to do so, and I'm confident many, many more people will continue as millions of new customers discover online gambling, and a generation that grew up on technology ages and thus has greater discretionary income which they will be more trusting with 'online' than older generations.


Nothing that is worth anything can be obtained without effort, and the greater the reward you expect, the greater the difficulties you will need to surmount to achieve it.

 

[Engineer]

I have been blaming the economy for the excessive winners (and they are excessive!)

I've noticed the same thing -- lots of winners; negative balances everywhere -- last month and this month, too. It's interesting to hear of so many others experiencing the same thing. Connect the dots....

I plan to remain in the industry, but in 2011 I will spend more time promoting non-US-facing programs.

 

[JackTen]

Please stop taking this attitude of 'us against them'. It is harmful. The tougher the time, the more the need to band together.

Try to re-read what I said.

It is a tough time for the industry; and profitability has been lowered across the board. But, overall, there is plenty of opportunity.

The thing is it's not affiliates having the "us vs them" attitude. It's iGaming owners constantly trying to find loopholes to screw affiliates over. We both know this to be the case.

I'm not generalizing, there are some great programs. But it isn't normal for that many of them, including established brands, to go to bed every night thinking of new ways to lower affiliate commissions.

Heck, if they don't like affiliates they don't need to have an affiliate program. Pokerstars did fine without one, for years. I myself think that affiliates are a bit overrated, but the programs are very happy when you send them players.

You complain about profitability and use it as an excuse for the lack of respect towards affiliates, which are supposed to be partners and not enemies. How is it our fault that these guys can't manage a business? They waste massive amounts of money on negative ROI stuff.

As I mentioned in a previous post.. a program that becomes proven to be reliable will get market shares quickly. Most affiliates have been burnt so we're looking for safe programs.

 

[Hazo]

I've noticed a lot of affiliates leave the poker industry. There is basically no options left for US accepting poker rooms.

Across the board though - I think we'll see the good affiliates consolidate and prosper, and the rest will get eaten up and be forced to get out.

I think this works best for everyone.

 

[Nicolas-Johnson]

The thing is it's not affiliates having the "us vs them" attitude. It's iGaming owners constantly trying to find loopholes to screw affiliates over. We both know this to be the case.

Yes there are operators who are less than ethical. But that does not mean all operators are unethical. And if you approach your ethical partners with an us-against you mentality, it will only make something natural a little more awkward.

I'm not generalizing, there are some great programs. But it isn't normal for that many of them, including established brands, to go to bed every night thinking of new ways to lower affiliate commissions.

Everyone is looking to run a tighter ship. Some people don't know which parts are fat and which are muscle, and trim the wrong areas; in the wrong ways.

Heck, if they don't like affiliates they don't need to have an affiliate program. Pokerstars did fine without one, for years. I myself think that affiliates are a bit overrated, but the programs are very happy when you send them players.

You complain about profitability and use it as an excuse for the lack of respect towards affiliates,

I never said lower profitability is an excuse for lack of respect. Lack of profitability is not a reason to disrespect an affiliate. Please don't mis-understand me.

which are supposed to be partners and not enemies. How is it our fault that these guys can't manage a business?

They waste massive amounts of money on negative ROI stuff.

It is not your fault if operators manage their business badly. But it is your choice, and therefore responsibility, as to whom you promote. Again, that is a challenge, that can be opportunity. If you can choose programs more wisely than your competitors, that is a competitive advantage.

As I mentioned in a previous post.. a program that becomes proven to be reliable will get market shares quickly. Most affiliates have been burnt so we're looking for safe programs.

100% Agreed and Understood.

 

[lots0]

And I will say this industry is not for people looking to make a short term buck. But many people have become rich on this industry, many people continue to do so, and I'm confident many, many more people will continue as millions of new customers discover online gambling, and a generation that grew up on technology ages and thus has greater discretionary income which they will be more trusting with 'online' than older generations.


Nothing that is worth anything can be obtained without effort, and the greater the reward you expect, the greater the difficulties you will need to surmount to achieve it.

I find it really ironic that I am being lectured the same thing(crap) I myself was spouting 4 or 5 years ago.

Btw - I have made a lot of money in this business for a very long time... and I still make money in this business.

I know it is hard for some of you to understand, but it is not about the money.

It's about having to deal with all the scumbags that are attracted to this business.

Look what Anurag Dikshit (ya you can call him 'dick shit') one of the founders of partypoker just did... he fucked us all and walked away with 700 million dollars and a get out of jail free card.

We haven't even started to see all the arrests and bank seizures that are coming down over Dikshit 'cooperating' with the Justice Department.

Ya this is a great business to get into....

I hadn't fully decided to quit the biz when I started this thread. I was actually hoping that Dom or someone would talk me out of it... But looks like just the opposite has happened.

 

[Guard Dog]

This has really turned into a great conversation Thanks, Lots0!

Of course, the topic is less than fun... but does lead to good discussion. For me, I love the business regardless of the unsavory characters in it. The fun for me is the challenge of it all. Trying to make money in an ever changing business is interesting. Trying to stay atop the SE's with the best keywords is a fun challenge as well.

Lots0 - When I think of you, I think of someone who is up for a challenge. I think this biz does present that for you and I would hope you stick it out. We all have to change with the times and this will be VERY interesting going into 2011 with Android Tabs, WebOS Tabs, and of course the iPad. VERY interesting.

 

[inspiration]

I hadn't fully decided to quit the biz when I started this thread. I was actually hoping that Dom or someone would talk me out of it... But looks like just the opposite has happened.

Lots0 you can always rotate programs, being flexible is all what is takes to get red of scumbags. Changing sites in minutes that would be awesome.

Hope you stay because you have made some good points we can learn from !