Affiliate vs Player argument

Discussion in 'Affiliate and Program Issues' started by Guard Dog, Oct 2, 2010.

  1.  
    Guard Dog

    Guard Dog Guard Dog Staff Member

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    I keep hearing over and over the following type arguments:


    • I only promote Casinos who treat players with respect regardless of what they do with affiliates.


    • I only promote Affiliate Programs that treat affiliates with respect and don't look at the player side


    I created this thread because I really am sick of both arguments. They make no sense, but are always re-iterated :(


    Here is my thought:

    If players are treated like shit... not paid on time, given the run around, etc.. then as an affiliate you are very likely getting the shaft (either knowingly or not). If they will treat their players like shit.... they WILL treat you like shit... or, at the very least, they will find ways to steal your commissions.

    The reverse is true as well...

    If affiliates are treated like shit... not paid on time, terms retroactively changed, commissions reduced or stolen... they WILL treat players like shit... or, at the very least, are capable of this.



    So - we are in bed together here, folks. As an affiliate, it is our duty to look at both sides here as much as possible. Check the casinos for player comments and check the affiliate program for affiliate comments.

    It is to your benefit to do so!!!
     
  2.  
    Engineer

    Engineer Super Moderator

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    Great topic. I completely agree!
     
  3.  
    Aussie-Dave

    Aussie-Dave Former AGD Member

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    Ditto, what he just said.

    While on the topic, you know what annoys me, I'll tell ya ;D

    • US and Them mindset.

    I make no difference between players or affiliates (others are like that too) and I've done so for the last 10 years. I have no qualms in dropping a program irrespective of which faction it's burning.

    Personally I'm getting a little tired of always feeling like I have to defend myself and I'm sure other affiliates feel the same too.

    I'd also add that affiliates are people too. That ethical webmasters go into bat for players but seem to only get support from players when & if it suits their cause.

    Given what's starting to happen in the industry I think it's about time both sides united and worked together.


    Cheers

    :)

    Dave
     
  4.  
    slotplayer

    slotplayer Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    based on that logic can we deduct that if affiliates are paid accurately and on time then players are to?

    I asume that if a program pays me they're also paying the players.
     
  5.  
    Guard Dog

    Guard Dog Guard Dog Staff Member

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    I don't think we can assume anything, to be honest.. There are places out there that pay affiliates on time and consistently and then go on to screw their players. And there are places that treat players like gold and screw their affiliate partners.

    Goes both ways, unfortunately :(
     
  6.  
    Simmo!

    Simmo! Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    LOL....I'm confused :p

    I see what you're getting at but I think the key argument you highlight in your original post is concentrating solely on trust and possibly overlooking a key additional factor as to why some of us "only promote Casinos who treat players with respect". Retention.

    What I mean is: I know affiliate programs who are rock solid but I've played at their casinos and they suck. I've played at casinos who are fantastic, but their affiliate program is poor. But in the latter case, as long as I *trust* the affilate program then I'll promote the casino.

    In terms of the sentiment of your post though I 100% agree on the trust issue.

    Cheers

    Simmo!
     
  7.  
    Guard Dog

    Guard Dog Guard Dog Staff Member

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    You may have missed my point :)

    Even if the affiliate programs are 'poor', it is ok... as long as they are not screwing over the affiliate. Screwing over anyone means that you are willing to do it anywhere in your business if you can 'justify it'.

    So... maybe one day they reduce commissions to affiliates. They do it retroactively and hurt all their partners.

    Once they are 'hurting' again, they will have to find another place to take the money from... where do you think that will be from? Players.


    All I am saying is do your 'due diligence' in promoting casinos. Promoting any old place that has done well with retention doesn't mean that they are treating their partners right. And if they aren't, that pendulum will eventually swing towards the player - and NOW who have you helped?

    In the same respect, the BEST affiliate program in the world can have shitty casinos and now you are doing the same thing!

    :)
     
  8.  
    slotplayer

    slotplayer Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    that's true its hard to say either way but my point was:

    From your op, if a program screws players you say it is likely they'll screw affiliates and vise vera. I agree 100%.

    So why can't we apply the same litmus test that if a program is honest with players chances are they're honest with affiliates and vise versa?

    As Simmo pointed out, one could argue that there is the affiliate side of a program and the casino side and both are run independently but I'm assuming he makes the same assumption I do that if the affiliate program is honest then the casino is to.

    Ultimately all we can do is test the process as both a player and as an affiliate and see for ourselves.
     
  9.  
    Simmo!

    Simmo! Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Yeah Andy - we're both on the sme page anyway :)

    Yes pretty much, although there are a handful of exceptions.

    Nail on the head. It's a double benefit: it's the way to be sure the casino does things right and it gives you the ammo to talk knowledgably about it to players. Experienced players can spot an affiliate who plays vs one who doesn't a mile off so being able to give a first-hand appraisal can give an affiliate a big advantage. Example: some affiliates aren't even aware of maximum weekly cashouts so imagine how many players they lose when they refer a player who wins say $3k and then realises they can't cash it out immediately.
     
  10.  
    Aussie-Dave

    Aussie-Dave Former AGD Member

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    I have a hard time understanding any affiliate who doesn't play or at least test the waters out. It's like writing a travel blog and never leaving your front door step.


    Cheers

    :)

    Dave
     
  11.  
    Rhondagrace

    Rhondagrace gotaslotonmymind

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    Andy, I agree with you 100% as both an affiliate and a player. if I get treated like shit either way, I need to evaluate who I am promoting and where I am playing. I just recently had a really bad experience with a casino as a player, and I have now removed this casino from my site. I care about my players and I will NOT send any traffic to a casino who treats any player like crap. just because you don't get a complaint from a player doesn't mean there not being treated badly, it's a tough line to draw. I believe every affiliate should open a player account and make a small deposit and see how the casino treats you. then it's your call whether to continue promoting them or to drop them. I see alot of affiliates that only complain when their not getting paid, and when you visit their site the very casinos they are complaining about are still on their sites. makes ya go humm......what do you expect! this goes for myself too. I can't be everywhere all the time but, I try my best to keep up with what's going on in this industry as a player and affiliate.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2010
  12.  
    bb1webs

    bb1webs Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    I've given a lot of thought to James' theory on that if they treat one side right, it stands to reason they will the other.

    Here's the thing. And actually ... its not all that bad towards the aff, because I'm not so sure it would effect affs ... but a bad rep for mistreating players is a bad rep, which in turn hurts the aff and everybody else in the industry.

    what am I talking about?

    Let me put it to you this way. You have 3 winning players arrive. Hurting for money, and willing to sell your soul, you choose to screw one of them out of their money instead of taking it from an aff.

    2 of those 3 players were sent by affs, lets say large ones, the kind you don't want to lose.

    Which of those 3 players are you going to screw?

    Now the thing about that is, is that although our players, the ones arriving thru an aff code instead of from google, are not going to get cheated, the fact still remains that somebody did - and you can bet they'll raise hell about it at some point, thus ruining the casino's rep, which in turn makes our players, who have been treated right, still turn their heads and look at the place who sent them to that casino, just as soon as word reaches them that somebody didn't get paid.

    Which is actually taking it a bit further than was needed, but you see where I am going with that.

    It is my guess that if you are going to cheat a player, you pick on the ones that showed up via google, first. Or perhaps pick on the small affs who will take much less amount of players with them when they go, compared to a big aff.


    If no affs are directly effected, it is more likely some will stick with you, and instead of facing a PO'd player + aff on the forums, (who I remind will be much more savvy therefore much less preferred as an opponent) - you face one lone person, who arrived without any sort of recourse, and lets face it, as much fraud that goes on with the player side, nobody is going to jump on the player's band wagon until they have all their ducks in a row and everybody knows the gun's powder is dry.

    A much easier target to take on and have expectations of walking away from the incident with just minor damage.

    True, they do that several times they are outed, but that's several big payouts they can avoid almost assuredly without serious consequences.

    So yes, I think the player can be at risk when the aff isn't.

    In fact, IMHO the smart move would be to not screw things up with the people sending you multiple new players, and instead focus on those players who arrive via google, (that win and try to cash out, the others are of course not a problem).

    On top of everything else, there will be a fair share of affs who don't give a damn about their players, so they will continue sending the new meat regardless of whether the program is outed for cheating players.

    Of course, that's just how an honest man would go about cheating. I am not well-versed like some of of the veterans. They may have a much better plan, but I doubt it. My experience has shown that either from sheer lack of respect, or that they're just that stupid, most cheating sponsors are easily caught (at least to the point where I am convinced to stay far away from them).

    but then again, all I need is to hear of someone I have respected for years, complain about seeing their income drop from 4 figures to $10 a month, for me to be convinced to stay way clear of that program.
     
  13.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    I guess I have an old fashioned mind set.

    To me your either Honest and Ethical or your not.

    There is NO middle ground in my opinion.

    If someone is willing to steal from one, they will steal from another... That is a fact.
     
  14.  
    Aussie-Dave

    Aussie-Dave Former AGD Member

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    So damn true.

    Affiliates have to give 100% trust to the program(s) they work with. Apart from the stats and our own traffic records, we really have no idea what goes on behind the scenes.

    It doesn't take a prophetic vision to know affiliates are still getting screwed. However it's now being done by programs we'd never have imagined doing it using all sorts of dodgy and unethical means to steal our players and shaft us in the process.

    Reiterating its got a whole lot worse since Grand Prive` got away with their theft. And I believe it's going to get a whole lot worse.


    Cheers

    :)

    Dave
     
  15.  
    bb1webs

    bb1webs Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    We must be looking in the same crystal ball, here's part of what i said in a thread I started at gap,

     
  16.  
    lots0

    lots0 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    You know guys, if we keep waiting till "someone" does somthing... we are all going to lose.

    For the most part, we all know each other and know what kind of business we run. In other words we know most of us are honest... so... Why can't we just come together for our common good?

    Do we really NEED a site to motivate and organize us? I don't think so.

    We KNOW what needs to be done... Why can't we just start doing it?
     

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