VC Affiliates - Predatory Terms?

Discussion in 'General Casino Affiliate Area' started by GFPC, Mar 11, 2010.

  1.  
    GFPC

    GFPC BWIN IS ROGUE

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    So since 2007 I have been promoting VC Poker. Back then i was new and only did poker. Did alright for a bit.. then noticed account stopped working.

    To make a long story short - i never heard from them for months. After repeated emails to them i gave up. Removed my banners and moved on.

    Just last week I get an email - saying tech issues with VC were happening. So it got me interested....

    I contacted them got my password reset and decided to check stats. LOL

    WOW!! I seen a Sports Bet player wagering 300 GPB a month.. so around $450 USD a month and i look at my commission - ZERO!!

    So i email them and ask them to please audit it - and let me know what is the issue and lets sort it out.

    It seemed the affiliate department was now responsive to affiliates.

    Well they decide to only pay me 25% of about 750 GPBs - just over $1000USD i think and then said my account will be closed...

    Since i no longer have a banner on my site they are using terms of termination to close me down... LOL

    With VC Affiliates if you do not promote them they have the right to shut your affiliate account down.

    So now i lose a $500 a month player for life!!!!

    Is this not Predatory? It does state this in their terms of service so i guess its my own fault.. but...

    After emailing them back - i told them the reason i removed them was because 7 months ago i could not get answers. They always held our payments so i got fed up.

    Since we have many more sites now - and active casino players, poker players, and soon to be Sports players i would of thought they would of reconsidered and transfered this player to a new account....

    But i guess they rather steal 1 players life time earnings of 25% then get many more players from all our sites.. LOL - to funny!!!

    Another back list group for us i guess!

    Anyone else loose a lifetime player from them based on this kind of term?

    Here is their terms - 5.1 and 3.4

    5 Term and Termination, Consequences and Unsuitable Sites

    5.1 Term and Termination
    a) This Agreement shall remain in force from the date of this Agreement for an initial fixed term of one year and shall continue thereafter unless and until terminated on 30 days written notice by one party to the other or otherwise as terminated below. For purposes of notification of termination, delivery via
    e-mail is considered a written and immediate form of notification.
    b) Either party may terminate this Agreement by notice in writing with immediate effect if the other party is in material breach of any of the terms of this Agreement and such breach, where it is remediable, remains unremedied fourteen days after receipt of notice from the terminating party that the other party is in breach.
    c) Either party shall have the right to terminate this Agreement with immediate effect on notice in writing if liquidation or similar proceedings relating to insolvency are filed or initiated by or against the other party.
    d) After termination, VC shall pay to the Affiliate commission subject to the terms of this Agreement on bets and accounts placed prior to the date of termination but no further commission shall be payable.

    3.4 Continued Promotion
    The Affiliate shall incorporate and prominently and continually display the most up-to-date links provided by VC on all pages of its website and in a manner and location agreed with VC, and the Affiliate shall not alter the form, location or operation of the links without VC’s prior consent. The Affiliate is eligible for Referral Commissions based upon its continued promotion of VC. VC reserves the right to terminate Referral Commission if the Affiliate ceases to promote the VC brand. The Affiliate’s reduced or suspended promotion of VC’s sites will be deemed to represent the Affiliate’s termination of this Agreement.
     
  2.  
    Engineer

    Engineer Super Moderator

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    Thanks for the info, Steve. That is definitely predatory. :eek: Affs would be wise to steer clear of VC Affiliates until they change their ways and start respecting their affiliate partners.
     
  3.  
    GFPC

    GFPC BWIN IS ROGUE

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    Thanks mate - and your welcome :)

    In all fairness I can't really complain to much - as I did agree to the terms from the start, although I do not remember. It was 3 years ago. I was also a new affiliate and did not think about those things.

    My only real peeve was the fact that even after I emailed them back requesting we work this out and start over I got a real cold reply.

    The term they use is similar to "Winner" in that if you do not promote them anymore they confiscate your earnings.

    This one player could go on to bet many thousands of dollars over the years and the 25% rev share i would of made would be a nice chunk over time.

    But to shut me out like this - even after explaining when they revamped their affiliate system they stopped communicating I had to chose. I was not getting paid by them..

    Yet i did not know I had a player who was raking with them. Hard to keep track when i have much larger payments to keep track of monthly...

    So anyways :) - yeah here was theeir last reply.. in email!!! LOL

    Dear Steve



    Thank you for your recent email.



    Abiding by our Terms and Conditions - Term 5.1 (b) Term and Termination - your account has been closed with immediate effect and shall remain closed.



    With regards to paying you further commission please read Term 5.1 (d) Therefore the outstanding commission to date will be paid tomorrow and no other commissions will be paid thereafter.



    You can read our Terms and Conditions on the following link :



    VC Affiliates - Terms & Conditions

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Note: If you promote VC AFFILIATES and decide to stop after some time - Please Keep a back Up file in case you need to contact them about payments for past players... If they see you not promoting them anymore they will refuse your money and close your account!!!!

    This is proof!!
     
  4.  
    Guard Dog

    Guard Dog Guard Dog Staff Member

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    And this is why we make sure affiliate-friendly programs remove these terms. We constantly get the response: 'We will never use that clause' or 'We have never and will never use that'.

    Well... this is the exact proof that companies WILL use such terms to confiscate your earnings.

    VC Affiliates should be ashamed of themselves.
     
  5.  
    GFPC

    GFPC BWIN IS ROGUE

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    Yes agreed!! I mean i would of thought they would want to continue and work it out in a more productive way. I fault myself really... I did not read the terms 3 years ago..

    At least they are paying me 25% of around 800 pounds!!! Pocket change!!
    I will buy some nice Poker and Casino news items for that!! ;D

    I was never to fond of their program back then - they lacked communication to much which is why i stopped...

    but as it turned out - a player turned into a solid earner and seems to losing a few hundred a month.. so over a years time it can be alot!!! Every bit helps.

    But then they pulled that term on me - after i asked them to even reconsider.

    They do convert! -

    but to be honest - It would be hard for me to reason continuing since that term is so unfriendly and me promoting them would condone that term!!

    So in a nut shell - I guess it worked out for the best except I lose for that player but save myself on moral ground!! Win win!!

    Its all good - i have other sports books and casinos to send players too.

    Thanks guys!

    Steve
     
  6.  
    Pokerkeep

    Pokerkeep Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    When Victor Chandler changed their program some time last year, they did it without notifying me as well. No communication for months! To this day, they have not bothered to touch base and see why I stopped pushing them.

    I have no idea how many months my banners and links were not working. Since the program was a non earner for me, I didn't check the account very often... maybe once every couple or three months.

    Once I discovered the links were broken, I tried to log in to my aff account to update my stuff, but found I was locked out... the login ID and password would not work.

    At that point I pulled all their ads and links from my site and washed my hands of them - as far as I'm concerned, they're trash - I wouldn't promote them again if they were the last aff program on Earth.
     
  7.  
    GFPC

    GFPC BWIN IS ROGUE

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    Hey Terry!!!! LOL - Yeah I had that problem exactly among others. Our tracking did not work, links. I had players say promo didn't work - ect ect..

    Except you know me - I never give up - I will email them for months and months to get them to finally reply!!!

    They did reply eventually - and got me set back up - and I earned a bit for several months until they stopped all communications again when i need help.

    Then at this time I said forget it :) - But i did not know I had a strong earner.

    What makes me sick - All i had to do was add a banner to Homepage showing i promote them (yesterday when they looked) and i would of got paid for the player and continuosly onward.

    I mean for 7 months they did not notice and then all of a sudden when i ask to be paid my commission they look??

    They obviously decided to rip me off!! LOL as when i suggest i will reapply banners and work with them they do not want to.. LOL

    Rather steal my income!!! - WELL DONE VICTOR!!!

    You made a good move Terry!!! - Well at least I salvaged a few hundred off those cheats!!!! LOL

    I will buy a nice article from someone with it - and the title will be Do Not Play at Victor Chandler!! LOL I am serious i am going to do that..

    Anyone wanna write it? Will pay $20 for it!! LOL

    Cheers
     
  8.  
    Pokerkeep

    Pokerkeep Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    If I had the time, I would write it for you - no charge!
    Giggles is in a foul mood right now over the spat with Dave... she's in prime shape to write a nasty article for you. :eek:

    BTW - got your pm and notified Judy. Thanks for the heads up!!
     
  9.  
    GFPC

    GFPC BWIN IS ROGUE

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    HAHA yeah i thought of that already :) - but maybe later shes working already on some for me :) Love her so much!!!!

    Re: Judy - cool!!

    Cheers
     
  10.  
    greek39

    greek39 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Obviously a predatory program Steve. I know little about VC Poker but will consider including them on my Rogue Site (dead beat business partners).

    The good news you received some payment but also lost any future earnings. Keep up the determination it does work never surrender.

    Likewise I am very determined to do what ever it takes in bringing down Grand Prive and the Virtual Group by years end. One of the reasons I not around all that much

    greek39
     
  11.  
    GFPC

    GFPC BWIN IS ROGUE

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    Thanks Greek!!

    We both been around long enough eh? - Had many discussions along the way about content thieves, scammer programs (leave that alone) and various other unsettling matters :)

    It goes with the job I guess. I am not to terrible upset as this account I had with them was mainly for poker - back when they had the 35 free. Being GFPC was our very first site it was a cool fit.

    Of course some players cross over to Sports and Casino - which for me on some programs like Euro Partners did well.. They always paid me and i continue to work with them.

    VC however just shut the door and i told them i was coming to tell people because in a sense I w ant them to come here and reply. I know they will!!

    They will be here today probably giving their reasons for the Terms!! So in reality even though i lose on this player - WE ALL GAIN in this industry by learning new information about programs.

    VC is not very active in the Affiliate community - so its a good time to open the door to them to come chat with us all. Hopefully they can change their terms and be more in line with friendly business practices.

    Here is a previous email - it may help understand why i was so upset initially!!

    Dear Steve
    Thank you for your most recent e mails and the information you supplied, which was of assistance to me in looking into your complaint.

    I have authorized payment to your Moneybookers account in respect of the 25% of £742.57, this being the only commission outstanding to you.

    I have revised your site Get Free Poker Cash - No Deposit Poker Bonus - Online Poker Bonuses - Free Poker Money and see that you are not promoting us there.

    Since you joined us in 2007 you have referred only one player who places sportsbook bets on a regular basis. All other players you bought to us have inactive accounts, which are either closed by security, or are players who invested very few wagers initially on joining us and no longer use the account. You have not referred any new active players to us in the past 7 months.

    Taking the above into consideration and abiding by term 5.1 of our Terms and Conditions the head of our affiliates department has instructed me to close your account for not complying with Term 3.4 - Continued Promotion - of our Terms and Conditions.

    For your interest you can read our Terms and Conditions on the following link:

    VC Affiliates - Terms & Conditions


    Well of course i have not sent more sports books players!! I was a poker site!!! LOL makes sense right?

    But i still brought over a regular player to them who rakes every month!!!!

    What i want to know is - WHY DID THEY NOT PAY ME FOR HIM for seven months in the first place?

    And second - why not re consider and allow me to promote them on 7 other sites where we do send sports books players?

    In regards to 7 months of no players!! Well how could I? They would not answer my emails!!

    They stole this player period! I hope they come here and explain. And also understand it was their fault i removed them!!

    Cant go months without talking to your affiliates!!

    They will be here!! Watch - I will keep all posted if they do pay.

    Bugs me though - I lose future revenue cause of their lack of communication!
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2010
  12.  
    greek39

    greek39 Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Also a lack of responsibility on their part. Failure to uphold and respect contractual agreements regarding future earnings. Well lets hope for the best.

    greek39
     
  13.  
    GFPC

    GFPC BWIN IS ROGUE

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    Yeah true - it does state though in their term 3.4 in essence if you do not promote them they will close your account. No argument their. I wish i copied the original terms from them 3 years ago.

    But - I suggested we work this out and transfer over to other sites!! Sports book and casino ect so i get to keep the player and bring them more. Of which they sent that cold reply.

    The term is predatory there is no doubt! - But my argument is I could not promote them because i could not get my emails replied to or get help seven months ago. I have to look for all those emails.

    Well anyways lets hope they do not make some excuse now why they cant pay me - ect ect. Some other line!! I need to get that article made :)

    In honestly I did like them - just the terms they have are not good.

    What can you do!!! Well I will educate my players and affiliates on the forums and that is all I can do.

    Steve
     
  14.  
    Guard Dog

    Guard Dog Guard Dog Staff Member

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    Here are the terms and conditions from VC Affiliates circa October 2007 :)

    VC Affiliates Terms - October 2007

    They have a minimum activity rule in the contract you signed up under, but since you have had a constant player - you do not fit this termination model:


    So - they don't have a 'leg to stand on'. They terminated your contract based upon a change to the terms and conditions AFTER your contract signage.

    This is called 'Breach of Contract'.

    So - now I would like to hear VC Affiliates (Victor Affiliates) reason this one out.
     
  15.  
    GFPC

    GFPC BWIN IS ROGUE

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    It is in times like this I truly see the value of being a member here. I always do feel this way but I now realize how important your services are Andy! I wish i signed up a long time ago - but I am here now.

    Thank you so much Andy this is so very helpful - I am in your debt!

    It is correct - since my player is generating rake and there was never a 6 month period of inactivity (in terms of gross rev) the term does not apply.

    Nothing there stating a stop of promotion!! Thanks for that Guard Dog.

    I would guess with the changes in affiliate systems last year - the assumptions from their end was to transfer everyone over to new terms.

    But i was not made aware of this or signed anything in that regard. Like Terry said - no one would reply.

    Yes I certainly would like to hear their take on this.

    Much appreciated again!!
     
  16.  
    GFPC

    GFPC BWIN IS ROGUE

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    I wanted to give a very short update before I head to dinner! The head of VC did contact me via email. He said he did post here and i see he joined. maybe he had a technical error with posting. As i gather from his email - he claims he posted a reply.

    My account was reopened and apparently there was some technical error. The offer to come back was put on the table.

    I replied - but first want to see him come here to explain his position and clear it all up for us all.

    I think its important to invite him here to communicate together and come to mutual benefit for all.

    If no reply comes in 24 hours - I will share the final outcome!

    Steve
     
  17.  
    Victors_Affiliates

    Victors_Affiliates New Member

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    Dear All,

    I am responding to this thread on behalf of Victor Chandler as Head of the affiliate program.

    I can see that this has all spun out of control, starting with Steve's initial email.

    I would like to start by saying up front, that we as a business recognise that the Victor Chandler Affiliate Program went through a difficult period through nearly six months, where it was under-manned and the affiliate program was handed over to an external source to manage in the meantime. We are aware of the lack of service the affiliate program provided in this time and the business has learned from these mistakes.

    Towards the end of 2008 I started at Victor Chandler and we employed a new affiliate team with a wealth of knowledge within them. This team managed to pick up the pieces and in July 2009 launched the latest version of their affiliate provider’s software – our current affiliate platform.

    In May 2009, we contacted our entire affiliate base to let them know that we were back in business and informed them of the new software and its advanced facilities. In the process of migrating we contacted all our inactive affiliates (meaning affiliates that have not referred a single customer in over 1 year) to encourage them to promote us again, and officially requested a reply to confirm that they would like to keep their accounts.

    By the end of May many of our inactive affiliates were delighted with the news and confirmed their interest in promoting Victor Chandler once again.
    Nevertheless, we sent out a further communication to those affiliates that hadn’t replied to us and once again implored them to reply to us and promote our brand once more. I would like you all to bear in mind that our channels of communication to our affiliates are typically restricted to just email, depending on the details the affiliate has registered. Saying this, some email addresses are often inactive and if the affiliate does not keep an eye on their registered email accounts, however active that email account may be, they will of course be unaware of our communications.

    On June 15th a final reminder was sent out to our inactive affiliates and reminded them that they had one last week to confirm to us that they would like to keep their accounts. Those affiliates that did not reply to us by the 23rd June were not migrated onto the new system. In our anticipation of affiliates that would contact us after that date, we decided that any of the inactive affiliates on the old system that come back to us before October 2009 - could have a new account on the new platform, and we would retag their previously referred players to their new affiliate accounts. Some affiliates came back to us and so we retagged their players and credited their affiliate accounts with any outstanding commissions that were due.
    By October 2009 we hadn’t had any inquiries from the remaining inactive affiliates for some time, and thus decided to finally draw the line. Since October we have only had two of the inactive affiliates come back to us and each time we have settled any outstanding commissions and kindly requested them to sign up a new account so that we can retag their players accordingly, in exchange for these affiliates promoting our brand once more.

    On June 24th we contacted all our existing affiliates to inform them of the migration period. In this period we decommissioned the previous affiliate system and no affiliate applications were accepted for one week during the migration. Throughout this week, affiliates were able to see their financial and traffic reports correctly, but were unable to extract banners from the Banner Manager for technical reasons in preparation for the final stages of migration.

    Throughout this migration, Steve’s account was incorrectly moved to CPA from Revenue Share due to a technical import error. As Steve hadn’t referred any players for some time, his reports were showing Revenue generated by his previous referrals - but no commission.

    The affiliate coordinator dealing with his query informed me of the issues, but I immediately assumed he was one of our inactive affiliates from our previous software, who wouldn’t even have an existing account on our new platform. I advised her to settle any outstanding commissions, but our little miscommunication resulted in Steve’s account being closed.

    I have now set to rectify the issue and I’ve approached Steve personally. His account has been reactivated and we have demonstrated our apologies for the confusion. As I have mentioned above, we prefer to encourage our affiliates to promote us and if Steve can trust in our program again and start referring players, we’d be more than happy to work with him again where he will enjoy his revenue from his existing players. To this date, there are no other commissions outstanding and we have him paid to date.

    With regards to various comments on the nature of our T&C’s, these are standard and have always been in-line with the basic affiliate industry terms. The T&C’s are in place to protect us from normal day-to-day liabilities, but we do not adhere to these religiously and we now ensure that our relationship with our affiliates is, above all, our top priority. With this in mind, we deal with each case individually and our resolve is always in favour of our affiliate’s expectations.

    I wish to point out, that although it may appear unfair, as with most types of business throughout the globe, we cannot be expected to continue paying our affiliates for old business if the affiliate has not actively promoted our brand or referred a single customer for a significant period of time. We have always referred to this option as plan B in worst case scenarios where our first advise to the affiliate is to re-engage our business relationship and to promote us once more. If the affiliate then decides to display our banners and refers players, we would of course welcome their custom.

    The affiliate program is actually being well managed now and you will have all seen our ever growing presence both online and offline at affiliate conferences. Our affiliates receive various communications bi-weekly and enjoy a good service from the affiliate team who are always available on telephone and email.

    We’ve made a great effort to get this program up and running again and I would not like our efforts to diminish our professional standard because of a genuine error which we may have mistakenly overlooked.

    I’ll be keeping a close eye on this thread and hope to reply to your queries accordingly (please be gentle, I honestly want the best resolve here).

    Feel free to email me directly and please find my contact details below.

    kind regards.

    Julian Dellipiani
    Head of Affiliate Marketing

    Chandler House, Leanse Place
    1st Floor 50 Town Range, Gibraltar.
    julian.dellipiani(at)vcint.com
    Tel: (+44) 0870 800 6474
    Mob: (+44) 07889995977
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2010
  18.  
    GFPC

    GFPC BWIN IS ROGUE

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    That was long :) - But thank you for coming in and sharing some information with AGD in the discussion Julian!!!!

    Couple of things I wanted to express....

    1. It was brought up here by me because when i asked Jean your AM if we could resolve this by me promoting you again he sent me another email indicating it was final - and that YOU made the decision as Head of Marketing.
    Please review my posts above. I wanted to work this out. I also informed him/her that i would be sharing this with the affiliate community.

    2. The terms pertaining to 3.4 are predatory. Even if you do not follow them religiously - it can be used to confiscate our earnings.

    Let me put it this way - I send you 100 players (example) over the course of a few years lets say. I decide to sell my site and feel I can do well for some time on RESIDUAL INCOME. Based on your term - My affiliate account will be closed down - THIS COULD be a great lose for some affiliates.


    Anyways rather then rehash it all - we know a few things now! I will say YES as of March 12th 2010 - I HAVE BEEN PAID to date. Meaning VC AFFILIATES did release funds to me up until that date for the active player.

    Also thank you for sharing the mishap and the error that had happen. Things happen and it was corrected now I hope. I do not yet see my account switched over to the proper REV SHARE MODEL. But the account was reopened for negotiation. (Assuming you want to negotiate).

    Am I on the old contract (previous terms) or on the new contract with those terms now?

    In regards to term 3.4 - Will you be willing to alter that term to make it more affiliate friendly?

    Basically - I would like to continue working with VC Affiliates and give you guy a chance but if the threat of losing LIFE TIME residual income from players is in your terms I cannot.

    In the case - your unwilling to change those terms - what happens to my active player? If i decide to not continue with promoting VC AFFILIATES will you again decide to close my account under terms 3.4?

    Will you actively become more involved in the affiliate community? And possible work with AGD to create more fair affiliate terms?

    I see this as a golden opportunity to follow up on your last statement.

    The affiliate program is actually being well managed now and you will have all seen our ever growing presence both online and offline at affiliate conferences. Our affiliates receive various communications bi-weekly and enjoy a good service from the affiliate team who are always available on telephone and email.

    Considering this information you have given us - I see no reason why you cant seek AGD certification - that is if Andy decides its appropriate.

    Steve
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2010
  19.  
    Guard Dog

    Guard Dog Guard Dog Staff Member

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    We would love to begin working with VC Affiliates to certify their terms. If they contact me at the email address in the right sidebar, we can begin immediately.
     
  20.  
    Pokerkeep

    Pokerkeep Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Thanks Julian for coming in and addressing the member's concerns. You're post was well constructed and answered many of the questions raised. However, you did not address this particular post - which, I think, gets to the heart of the matter...

     

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