Negative Carryover - What if a player wins big, then in the next month loses all?

Tyrkir

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The title says it all,
What happens if a player deposits say $1000, and makes it into $50000 in one month, and in the next month he loses all the $50k?
Do I get revshare for $50k for the second month? I mean that would be a huge blow for the operator..
Given that the operator is a respectable one with no negative carryover.
Anyone had a situation like this?

Thanks in advance
 

Guard Dog

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It really depends upon the program, I think. Some actually take this hit. It is not necessarily fair to them, but definitely has happened.
 

Engineer

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If they have "no negative carryover" in their terms and conditions, and if there is no "high roller" policy that would isolate this one winning player until the majority of his winnings are played back, then yes, you should earn rev-share on the $50k loss, even though he originally deposited only $1k.

This has happened to me a few times, although it was never anywhere near the $50k amount.
 

roey

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But what if they withdraw it the following month are you -50 each month?
 

ShaneAddinall

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But what if they withdraw it the following month are you -50 each month?

Hi Roey,

As you stated above, this example is based on the Affiliate Program not having a negative carryover rule, in that case you would only be in a negative for that one calendar month - in the new month you would start on zero again not negative $50K.

Shane
 

societyofslots

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Besides casinos dont care who wins or loses, they earn money from the percentage of the amount played in the game. It is a numbers game for casinos. The more people play the casinos make their money from the house edge accross all the games. So that 50k win is meaningless.
 

ShaneAddinall

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Besides casinos dont care who wins or loses, they earn money from the percentage of the amount played in the game. It is a numbers game for casinos. The more people play the casinos make their money from the house edge accross all the games. So that 50k win is meaningless.

Hi SocietyofSlots,

Casinos do in fact care who wins as the money they make is from the deposits players make - therefore any player who wins can have a massive impact on the bottom line of a casino. Regardless of terms like Netwin or Net Revenue there is never more money in a casino other than the deposits made less the cashins taken out**.

Especially now with casinos focussing on various regions, if you have a big winner in small region they can hurt that regions overall profitability.

This is the reason for the big push for new players - the intention is to get enough players in the door that overall all the one big winner is cushioned by the money left behind by the larger base of players.

Shane

** The one exception here is of course money a player wins on a Progressive Jackpot.
 

societyofslots

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This is the reason for the big push for new players - the intention is to get enough players in the door that overall all the one big winner is cushioned by the money left behind by the larger base of players.

How can that be ?.. So in essence your saying if a Brand new casino started up tomorrow and within their first 10 players someone had a big win. The casino goes bankrupt ? Sorry but im not buying it. Surely there is a "pot of money" that is used to seed the casino wins otherwise how would the casinos get a license to opperate ?
As far as im aware, casinos arent banks, and therefore need insurance. i.e a Seed pot to pay winnings. And the casino takes the house edge on the game. Otherwise the casino is taking the house edge and the deposits risking bankruptcy everytime someone wins, running on zero insurance funds.

hmmm
 

ShaneAddinall

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CaseyM is 100% correct. In fact many casinos have closed where they focused only only one or two regions and those regions have closed down.
At the end of the day a casino, like any other business, is a cash business.

The saving grace for a casino is that they are started by backers/shareholders who put up a float, its this cash 'float' that allows them to stay in business till they hit critical mass where there are enough players leaving behind money to cover the wins of others..

If there are safeguards and other things put in place between the platforms and new casinos I can't be sure of but I'm sure they get a helping hand initially.
 

roey

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Without negative carryover your balance = 0 the following month, but they still have 50k to play with, so does that 50k if withdrawn put you in the negative the following month, if withdrawn the following month?
 
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Engineer

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No, it shouldn't matter when they withdraw the winnings. The affiliate systems know how to track this; you won't be docked twice. Once your negative balance is erased, that's the end of it.
 

KasinoKing

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Without negative carryover your balance = 0 the following month, but they still have 50k to play with, so does that 50k if withdrawn put you in the negative the following month, if withdrawn the following month?
What Engineer said!

Casino gross Profit & Loss figures are ONLY based on the WAGERING during a given month.
When deposits and/or withdrawals are actually made should not come into the equation.

KK
 

WBX Affiliates

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That is the risk a bookmaker faces when offering no negative carryover.

With WBX we are a sports betting exchange so the earnings with our program will not go into large negative amounts.

Since bettors pay a commission on their wins and they are betting against each other, WBX doesn't face any risk on the outcome of each bet.

So it is much easier for us to offer no negatives carryover. I can see it being a problem for some programs though, where they may end up losing money under some circumstances if they take a huge loss one month and it doesn't carry over.
 

Roulette Zeitung

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Many months later I see myself confirmed with my old opinion, that all these no-negative carry over honeypots can't work in the long run. I don't know, who was the first with this nonsense, but it would be a reason to make a time travel.

Also the webmasters have to suffer under it in the long run, because if the program goes broke or have to install terms later, then it's no help for them.

As a part of this industry from the very first days I have had never any problem with negative carry over, because programs can't endanger their earnings capacity by an economically questionable commercial policy, and indeed a pure no negative carry over policy is questionable.

No negative carry over for me it's only a hype, and after many months I see the first programs came into financially problems, and some new programs and even older ones installed at least a "Highroller Policy", because they recognized, that for a small company it's sheer suicide to have absolutely no negative carry over.

You can't pay 40% revenue share with a pure no negative carry over if you are a small or medium program.
It's nonsense and it can't work in the long run.
Everyone with a calculator can compute it.
As a result they have to change their terms at any day and then all webmasters are yelling.
It's a no-win situation.

Leopold
 

slotsaff

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I know of a case where a player deposited £150 and won £37,000 - this was on the second last day of the month.

The player came back a few days later (in the next month) and lost back £31,000 - the affiliate got 40% of that £31,000.

Whilst they may be great for affiliates, it's a little unfair for operators - but with tough competition, operators are compelled to offer no negative carryover.
 

DaftDog

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I know of a case where a player deposited £150 and won £37,000 - this was on the second last day of the month.

The player came back a few days later (in the next month) and lost back £31,000 - the affiliate got 40% of that £31,000.

Whilst they may be great for affiliates, it's a little unfair for operators - but with tough competition, operators are compelled to offer no negative carryover.
Would you be happy running a business with a fundamentally flawed business plan like that?
 

AE-Martyn

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Would you be happy running a business with a fundamentally flawed business plan like that?

One of the possible reasons new programs fail could well be down to this. To stand out or make a statement to draw attention there are only a few things that an operator can do to differentiate themselves, no neg carryover is one of them.

Yes it's a big plus for the affiliate, but it's not really a viable option for a single source of income (casino) unless the losses can be offset by either multiple sources of income such as the addition of bingo, poker and sports or bags of cash on hand to pay for the losses.

[massive statement]Negative carryover isn't a bad thing.[/massive statement]
 
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