Negative Carryover? How can they do it?

[WagerX]

Can someone please help me understand what's expected from programs that offer no "negative carryover". I've been in contact with Incomeaccess with a new project of mine, and they define "negative carryover" in their system as the absolute reseting of a negative balance back up to zero after the end of the month. That I understand 100%. I asked them what happens when a player wins big making the net affiliate commission negative. It's set back to zero and the following month that player loses half of it back. The casino is still out half the amount, but the affiliate still makes money when the casino loses on that player. When I presented that scenario to IA they said that's why the majority of the programs that use their software do not offer "no negative carryover". Under that definition of an absolute negative carryover, the casino can not have a viable business, can they?

A hybrid "no negative carryover" could be done to assure that a big winner doesn't clean out your commissions, but that would be a case by case basis and not a "global standard".

Can anyone shed some light on this one?

 

[LionSlots]

No Negative Carryover, it can hurt a program.

It doesn't make smart business sense for a casino to do it, but really you can't attract affiliates if you don't have "No Negative Carryover"

We started with Negative Carryover, and consistently had affiliates asking for no negative carry over, or they wouldnt promote us. We changed our policy to "No Negative Carryover" soon after.

This scenario is common for a x player by y affiliate :

Month 1
Player Wins $10K
Affiliate Earnings -~$3K (30%)
Casino Net = -$10K

Month 2
Player Wins $10K
Affiliate Earnings -~$3K (30%)
Casino Net = -$20K

Month 3
Player Loses $20K
Affiliate earnings ~$6K (30%)
Casino Net = -~$6K


Do this over a couple of hundred players, a month, from month to month...

 

[Guard Dog]

Good explanation, Rak. Affiliates love 'no negative carryover', of course No surprise there and it is the reason we list programs that do carry over negatives.

I know there are some programs that have a clause in their terms that says if a large win happens, you will have that carried over - but not on small players. Some programs allow you to remove players that are way in the negative as well, but that will benefit them huge in the end (IMO).

I prefer 'No Negative Carryover' with no clauses myself

 

[bonustreak]

I have heard that they say no neg carry over but if a player hits big they untag that player from you until the hit is made up BUT that is a rumor

 

[JAmieF]

Hi Wager X

How are you? Great question by the way! You are correct in the short term the casino can lose money but affiliate programs are about long term relationships.

At Income Access we encourage our partners not to carry over negative commissions so affiliates can earn revenue. for their efforts and remain a long term partner. Each programme ultimately decides whether they will have negative carry-over or not, and we advise you to check the programme T&Cs at all times.

Cheers

 

[bb1webs]

Hi all,

In 10 years time ... I've had one situation like Lions has illustrated and that was with Rewards Affs. (BTW Lions: Renee spoke well of you and I'll be wanting to work closer with you)

but anyway 1 in 10 yrs ... not something to base a future on ... I'll say that much.

curious ... how many others .. and how often ... see a scenario like Lions presented?

If I had not seen such happen only once in ten years then I'd give more consideration towards the casino's plight but that just hasn't been the case.

On top of that ... I am the only one I know of (aside perhaps one other) that has ever seen a player win big one month and give it back the following.

But perhaps others just didn't say anything. I gave RA a lot of exposure for it because I felt they deserved it just as I have recently given Wager Share a lot of plugs for treating me decently over a payment that may have been made ... may not ... neither of us knew for sure so they paid me ... possibly again.

Pretty solid when compared to the nearly countless threads I am seeing at forums across the net about programs not paying or being months behind.

Finally lets assume what Lions said does happen often (I'd not argue the fact if not for my own and many other's experiences over the years proving to me that the carry-over scenario presented by Lions ... just doesn't happen that often. At least not at numbers which are stand-out.

In my case with Rewards Affs ... I think the player won about 40k ... turned around the next month and gave it back. That was a good month for me and speaks extremely well of Rewards.

 

[WagerX]

Pretty solid when compared to the nearly countless threads I am seeing at forums across the net about programs not paying or being months behind.

You brought up a good point about potentially more important factors for affiliate programs.

Once in 10 years.. That's not so bad I guess. In my case I've had two high rollers that won huge amounts. They were deep in to their winnings for at least two weeks before bringing a little back the the casino. This happened the first two weeks of December, and the first two weeks of October 2008. Since the affiliate program I work with does have negative carry overs it really didn't matter.

BUT.. if they did I would have made almost 50% more if the players were offset by two weeks. It would have been great for me, but not viable for the program at those commission levels.

Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate it.

 

[FictionNet]

Yeah, it does seem to be weighted heavily against the affiliate program and in favour of the affiliate... and I'd completely understand why a program wouldn't want to do it - but, as has already been mentioned, the fact that affiliate have so many merchants to choose from will always mean that they'll go with programs that don't carry the negs.

I do promote Wagershare and they have a kind of high-roller win policy which I don't pretend to fully understand, but it seems to work okay.

 

[bonusgeek]

Like rakesh says, I think the affiliate market demands the no negative carry over. If a program wants to max out then its in their best interest to offer this to affiliates. I know without it they wont land me or I wouldn't be doing right for my own business, and I am obviously not alone there.

On a side note I was in the biz for just a few months, not making much at all and I had a player win $15K at the end of the month, lose it back the next month and to my surprise they paid me like $4K the next month. I didn't even know about the no negative deal but I remember it quite clearly because it was a major stepping stone for me. It got me excited about the business and gave me some working capital. It was kind of funny too, I remember saying saying to myself before I really understood the way things work, "Man, these jokers pay me 30% when players lose, 30% when players win, --- these guys must have flunked the business 101 course about how to pull a profit lol. Needless to say I was clueless back then.

 

[Vladi]

Look at it from an affiliate's point of view. You refer a player, they win a 100k jackpot and withdraw never to be seen again. With negative carryover, there is no incentive for the affiliate to promote that program again, because you'd need to make up 100k in commission just to break even with them, and I'd much rather have that 100k in my pocket.

Given the whole "trust-based" nature of this industry (ie affiliate refers players and is almost totally reliant on the honesty of the casino reporting their wins/losses), I see no negative carryover deals as a partially acceptable compromise, because I am sure as hell getting ripped off somewhere else along the line (obviously not necessarily with the same program).