Did something important change in T&C

Discussion in 'Revenue Giants' started by Techwoman, Oct 15, 2011.

  1.  
    Techwoman

    Techwoman New Member

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    I'm not good at deciphering T&C's but I did notice that recently I logged into my affiliate account and saw this above my stats
    It was connected to a link for the T&C's revenuegiants.com/affiliate-program-terms.html

    I hope it wasn't anything crucial, I thought you may want to have a look.

    Thanks!!!!
     
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    Guard Dog

    Guard Dog Guard Dog Staff Member

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    I'll run a manual terms spider to see what the deal is. Might be Monday before I can get to the analysis.
     
  3.  
    Guard Dog

    Guard Dog Guard Dog Staff Member

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    ok, it looks like the main reason for the terms change is that RG has taken over some casino properties and has put in their terms that they 'may or may not' pay old debts from their affy programs:

    ADDED:
    Revenue Giants reserves the rights to take over the marketing of new clients and promote them via the affiliate program at any given time. Revenue Giants will do its best to update affiliates regarding new and upcoming clients, but it is the affiliate's full responsibility to keep up to date with the new clients. Revenue Giants is not responsible for any previous debt or issues of clients or their affiliate programs prior to their cooperation with Revenue Giants. In case Revenue Giants do decide to take responsibility of old debts of their clients, it would mean taking into consideration the accessibility to old program stats and info, as well as cooperation of previous client/ affiliate program. Nonetheless, it would be considered on case to case basis within reasonable time frame (up to 6 months) from the takeover date.

    UPDATED:
    Referral Fee Payments: All referral Referral fee payments are made through the following methods; NETeller, Ecocard, Papercheck, MoneyBookers and Bank wire. We will send a NETeller payment in U.S. dollars or Euro for the applicable referral fees on or before the 10th 30th day of each calendar month for the previous month's referral fees, as long as the amount due to Affiliate is more than or equal to U.S. $50. 50, U.S. $100 for a PaperCheck or U.S. $1,000 for a Bank Wire. If the amount due to Affiliate is less than U.S. $50, the minimum required per method the amount will be carried forward to the next month. Furthermore, Affiliate account holder must match the name on the payment method. In the event that the Affiliate's name does not match the commission will not be processed. In special cases and according to the marketing director's decision an exception can be made. Revenue Giants does not charge payment fee, the provider may charge a fee though. Therefore, it is the Affiliate's sole responsibility to verify the fee per his/her preferred payment method.

    UPDATED:
    This Agreement represents the entire agreement between the parties and supersedes all prior negotiations, agreements or understandings for WinwardCasino.comall properties we promote; WinwardCasino, BingoHall.comBingoHall, VicsBingo.comVics-Bingo, BingoForMoney.comBingoForMoney, InternetBingo.comInternetBingo, SlotsVillage.com SlotsVillage, RichCasino, 7Spins, 7Reels, ThebesCasino, 21Dukes, InstantBingo, CasinoMoons, SouthBeachBingo or any other property running under the RevenueGaints.com affiliate program both now or in the future.


    There it is. Will get out an official alert on Monday.
     
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    Techwoman

    Techwoman New Member

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    Thank you so much!! This is always the first place I look when I investigate terms of the programs I decide to promote or not :)
     
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    dominique

    dominique Certification Member

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    May or may not? Very confused!
     
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    lojo

    lojo Banned

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    lol Dom, iirc Winward evaporated from Rogue lists for some reason even as their welcome bonus terms read ' may or may not play blackjack '. Players have always had to deal with ambiguous and misleading terms with RG casinos, why should affiliates be any different?


    Does that say what i think it says?
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2011
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    Vladi

    Vladi Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    The reason they put this in is they took over a bunch of failed TopGame casinos like 7Spins and Thebes, all of which owed thousands in unpaid affiliate commissions. And this is their CYA move to avoid paying them.

    I always thought that when you buy a business you buy their debts as well as their assets, but silly me thinking that this was the real professional business world and not casino affiliate lala-land where criminals do whatever they want and get away with it.

    Anyway their casino terms are so player hostile that you would be a fool to promote any of them. Any player that falls afoul of all the pitfalls in their T&Cs is neither going to play there very long, nor come back to your site for advice on where to play next.
     
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    lojo

    lojo Banned

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    I'm pretty sure they have been part and parcel from the start, the same bonehead winward moves have been echoed in almost all topgame operations. And yeah winward sucks most of the time, they have had moments but change seems hard for some :(
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2011
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    MissM

    MissM Affiliate Program Representative

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    Hello Guys,

    GuradDog thank you for the post, I like when you check our T&C. We like to make them clear to all and it helps to read your threads so we can adjust things if needed.

    I'd like to mention that the T&C weren't updated for some time, like payment methods for instant, new clients we added etc, it was important to include it all, and to avoid adding extra notes each time on newsletters and on each account, I believe best to keep all info on one place. e.g; previously it says all payment were paid via Neteller, it is not the case since 2007. so although as a general rule we don't like to change T&C and try to avoid it. We want (and need) to keep it up to date.

    Regarding the debts of our clients, before anything I want to say we are not responsible of any debts of our clients, we are only referring to their affiliates. Which we did take on ourselves a 6 figure debt already and paid it in full. Unfortunately now we have no access to some stats of previous programs or payment history and it gets very difficult for us to reconcile someone's else debt without cooperation and with a very minimal info.

    What surprised me with those reconciliations is that some of those debts were a debt of a year that was not paid, not a month or two prior to the cooperation with RG. I must say I personally think that it is not inevitable as few of you may think that an affiliate program will take over debt of others' client's programs which they haven't paid for a year of their operation. If I may on my opinion it is completely wrong for an affiliate to keep working with a program in the first place when they dont pay him/her for that long, and then come to the new program with complains, rather than appreciate the new program settling what the previous one couldn't do. Again, we did not buy those sites and we are not responsible of what expenses the new owners take on themselves or not, but as we run their marketing the most logical thing to do was to make the best effort to settle old debt of affiliates and this is what we did.

    There is a time when it gets harder and harder to reconcile. 9 months I think was a reasonable time and yet I say if we will get a new request of old debt from affiliates of other programs related to our new clients we will still do our best to get it solved and paid but it is harder to commit after such a long time and with the difficulties of access which was mentioned as well.

    Any further questions about the T&C pls let me know or feel free to email me personally as well.

    Cheers, Malci :emoticon-0109-kiss:
     
  10.  
    lojo

    lojo Banned

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    Hi Malci,
    Hope you are doing well. You may remember me from another forum where I was banned for name calling the moderator because of his total disrespectful treatment of you. (winward garbage - matter no longer needed or wanted) I was a strong supporter of Winward when Jan Strydom was at the helm but have taken a neutral stance for the most part since then. I haven't been a depositor for several years now because I find the player terms confusing and difficult to find let alone interpret. You have always seemed helpful with player concerns and I believe this translates directly to certain affiliates promoting you. It may seem audacious of me to address this by this channel but I do have several clients who are considering promoting Winward and other Top Game properties. Would you be so kind as to open a discussion here and with your managers about making the terms more player friendly? It can only do you good and as this is a purely professional forum I am sure you will be treated with the respect you deserve.
     
  11.  
    Vladi

    Vladi Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Do you really think that affiliates keep working with programs that don't pay them? In our case we have not sent traffic to these TopGame casinos for a long time but still the money sits in the account unpaid. That is a measure of how shitty both the casinos and their affiliate programs were. What can you do if you have sent a couple of players who continue to earn commission that you are never paid despite asking for it? And you try to infer that it is our fault that the previous owners refused to pay the commissions? Are you for real?

    Our requests to your program to pay them have gone unanswered.

    You may think that "it is not inevitable" that you have to pay the debts of the business that you acquired, but if you didn't know that you are legally responsible for doing so then you are incredibly naive and/or inexperienced in running a business. Or you are just lying. Think about it for a minute, if business debts just disappeared every time a business was sold then everyone would just create shelf companies and sell to themselves every few months and never pay a debt. The only reason that your company gets away with things like this is that you operate in a tinpot jurisdiction with little or no regulation making it prohibitively difficult and expensive for affiliates to take you to court and sue you for the money which I could do if you were in my country.

    The best I can do is continue to tell the world and search engines what a crap bunch of casinos you run, and how player hostile your terms and conditions are. My hope is that you won't be around for much longer, polluting the internet with your sites. Let me see (this is from 7Spins, I couldn't even find the terms on Winward - perhaps you have removed them due to being called out on how bad they are)...

    - Payouts processed once a week, 10-12 days wait to get paid after processing.
    - Maximum withdrawal $5000 (but wait there's more below that makes that virtually impossible to achieve).
    - Can only withdraw once at any site in your entire network on each pay run.
    - You "randomly" do a security verification on accounts that withdraw which further delays the process. And even if the security check succeeds you will put the withdrawal back in the player's account, forcing them to submit another withdrawal. Gee I wonder what you're really trying to do here?
    - Players who haven’t deposited in the last 60 days will be able to withdraw a maximum of $500 per month.
    - New players cannot even withdraw at all until they have made 3 deposits and then can only withdraw $500 per month for the first 6 months, at which point presumably the term above this one kicks in unless they have foolishly decided to deposit again just so that can withdraw a larger amount.

    Congratulations. You have the single most ridiculous set of terms I have ever seen at an online casino. Its like putting a sign up on your website saying "HALLO EVERYONE! WE LIKE TO RUN ROGUE CASINOS WITH NO MONEY!!11!1!"
     
  12.  
    MissM

    MissM Affiliate Program Representative

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    Revenue Giant$

    Hello Vladi,

    I think you might have missed the entire thread here. Although you are being quite rude on your post allow me to explain for the benefit of this thread and forum members;

    We are talking about Revenue Giants' T&C that is my Affiliate program which I have full control over it and I do all it takes to protect the program and our affiliates and to keep it up to date. I am not hiding or running from any responsibility I'm always available even for players and most of my affiliates met me personally as well and know how to reach me at any given time, this industry deserves a better respect that what you give or suggest that to be.

    Furthermore, There were NO acquisitions by the affiliate program. Revenue Giants did not buy any other affiliate programs nor we are responsible of any issues refer to them, nor did Revenue Giants buy any gambling websites. Thus Revenue Giants is NOT responsible of their debts either. i.e from affiliates to players payments or clients T&C.

    You perhaps did not continue to promote a program that haven't paid you which is great, but we are not talking only about one person, I was referring to all complains we got and I can tell you we also received requests of old debt since Jan 2010 which were not paid, yet the affiliates were very active. Pls advice if you owed money by any of those programs? how much and did you email me about it at all?

    Once we took on ourselves to add those new clients we have made internal decision to migrate at the same time all old codes of the previous program so our affiliates will not lose on those players they sent in the past and are still playing at the client's site. And the second thing we did was after we realized most affiliates were not paid for some time, we have decided we will take on ourselves part of the burden as much as possible with the info we will manage to grab from the previous program.

    This made a lot of business sense for me at the time and now as well, to keep affiliates motivated about not losing their effort when a program closed down for whatever reason. And I still insist it is not inevitable that affiliate program pay debt of affiliates of a different program which they did not buy. Yet, we did pay almost all debts of those programs related to our new clients but we did it in good faith (and business sense too) and not as if we were legally binding to do, which we are not.

    Regards,
    Malci
     
  13.  
    MissM

    MissM Affiliate Program Representative

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    RevenueGiants.com

    lojo my friend, I like your idea, let me check what can be done.
    Not sure if should be on this forum though as it is more related to T&C for our clients (for players) without suggesting other forum sites here.

    Yours, Malci :-*
     
  14.  
    Vladi

    Vladi Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Malci, I am sorry if my tone offends you. I am a straight talker and I do not play politics. Some of this may offend, try not to take it personally.

    So, Revenue Giants did not acquire the affiliate program or the TopGame casinos. Is that the whole picture? Is Revenue Giants owned either directly or indirectly by either Winward Hall Ltd or Savargne Investments Inc which seems to own all the casinos and your website too? Or are you saying that you are contracted as an entirely separately owned third party to run the affiliate program only and therefore the responsibility of paying affiliates the money they are owed should rest with those companies?

    revenuegiants.com: 77.66.24.40
    winwardhall.com: 77.66.24.42
    winwardcasino.ag: 77.66.26.174
    7spins.com: 77.66.26.164
    thebescasino.com: 77.66.26.165
    21dukes.com: 77.66.26.165

    It seems to me that if your domain and Winward Hall's corporate domain are both hosted on the same netblock with almost identical IP addresses, and both domains use the same privacy protection service to hide the owners, you are very closely related. At the very least you are sharing the same site hosting services. Aside from that, a quick google for "Savargne Investments Inc" suggests to me that one company owns all the casino sites, Revenue Giants, and Winward Hall.

    So while "Revenue Giants" may not have acquired the casinos and affiliate programs, there is strong evidence to suggest that a parent or related company did.

    Hmm, if you didn't acquire the affiliate program how were you were able to acquire the valuable data necessary to migrate players from the old program?

    Your statements do not add up.
     
  15.  
    dominique

    dominique Certification Member

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    Lojo,

    many moons ago it came up that AGD should also watch out for players. We evaluated that for some time, and came to the realization that, as volunteers, we barely manage to stay on top of our purpose - making sure there is a place where affiliates can go to check T&Cs.

    So we decided to adopt Casinomeister rogue judgements, and not to approve programs that are blacklisted over there.

    We want to do one thing and do it well, not spread out so thinly that nothing is done well.

    So I think this is the wrong venue to evaluate player T&Cs.

    A place that does this the same way AGD does for affiliates would be great, and maybe you want to start one. We were considering starting one since it does seem to be a need, but there is just not enough time in the day to do it. We all volunteer here and have our own rent to pay and mouths to feed.

    I am all for you and Malci sticking your heads together to look over player T&Cs. But please don't expect AGD to get involved. We are still dealing with a backlog of affiliate T&C's as is...
     
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    lojo

    lojo Banned

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    Don't know how I missed this until now.

    That may well be a good idea, thank you. I didn't really expect the board here to get involved, just to host the discussion in a place that important people congregate.

    As MissM concurs about the venue, and it looks like it has the potential to be a distraction from certified programs - if I take it on I won't bring it back here for discussion unless it reaches a level that makes sense for AGD.

    Edit: It appears they are certified so the conversation may come back here sooner than later if we make progress. Thanks for the suggestions. :)

     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2011
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    MissM

    MissM Affiliate Program Representative

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    Revenue Giant$

    Vladi, I appreciate your note, yes I do take things personally this business is very important to me, its integrity represent my own, so once one put it in jeopardy is my responsibility to correct it. I would think anyone who loves what he does will do the same.

    Revenue Giants is a separate company that specialize in Online Marketing in general and Affiliate marketing in particular. it wasn't been like that in the past, but it was purchased as a separate entity and have different owners. I am not sure what you mean about the hosting and IP address, there must be related servers that generate the data to Revenue Giants in a secure way (player account ID, deposit, withdrawals, chb etc..- no players personal info allowed). besides the servers I can also tell you that we are also trying to always be closer physically to our main clients, it helps when you can put a face to the name, and we found communication goes much smoother this way.

    Regarding the data of the previous affiliate programs, we asked a permission from the new clients to allow us to generate the info via the same access we have but for old codes (not our codes) and explained it make sense if we merge the old codes to our system and by this we keep the affiliates happy and continue pay them now for active players they refereed a while back and they agreed. we were also granted a temporary and limited access to their previous affiliate program to verify the migration which we used as well to try and reconcile some pending issues.

    If you have any more questions please don't hesitate to ask,
    you still didn't tell me how much money you are owed? if at all?

    Dom, thank you kindly, we will take it elsewhere, I agree AGD shall be dedicated to affiliates issues only.

    Lojo my friend, why dont you email me and let's see what can be done.

    Yours,
    Malci
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2011
  18.  
    TheGamblingGuru

    TheGamblingGuru Turning Over Stones

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    Yea, Malci, I got a question for you...where are all of your casinos and bingo rooms licensed? What jurisdiction specifically?

    I looked thru all of your websites this morning before updating my Rogue List and the best I can make of your brands license's or lack there of is Costa Rica, is this correct?

    I'm also still owed money as well from when we previously promoted 7Spins Casino!

    ____
    ____
     
  19.  
    MissM

    MissM Affiliate Program Representative

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    Revenue Giant$

    Hi TheGamblingGuru,

    Please email me all info of any debt you had with 7spins affiliate program if you haven't done it till now and I'll do my best to get it solved, I will need your patience as it is a bit hard now as we don't have much access but send to me I'll do my best.

    Regarding your question, the license is Costa Rica, however few of the casino sites are in process to receive a license from Curacao.

    I looked at your site, can you please work with me to try and solve any open issues with any of my clients, I don't wish to have any on rouge lists, especially those that change ownership they deserve a chance now.

    Yours, Malci :emoticon-0109-kiss:
     
  20.  
    TheGamblingGuru

    TheGamblingGuru Turning Over Stones

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    Absolutely, lets talk one day this week, you can hit me up on Skype if you like, my name there is the same as here. :)

    ____
    ____
     

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