Chargebacks

Discussion in 'Nordicbet Partners' started by lauferb, Mar 10, 2011.

  1.  
    lauferb

    lauferb Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 10, 2011
    I wanted to ask 2 questions:

    1. how come is it that every single month I get "Chargebacks" penalty from triobet?
    bad customer support?
    other type of way in which something that triobet does annoys the players?
    (just for the note, I rarely get chargebacks from other casinos)

    2. what is the "Bonus" field in the report and why does it include negative amount?

    thank you
     
  2.  
    Shaun O'Neill

    Shaun O'Neill Affiliate Program Representative

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    Mar 22, 2011
    Hi

    Sorry buyt i have only just seen this post so the reply is a bit late.

    If check your report it actuallt states chargeback/admin fee, the reason is shows every months is that we clearly show the 15% admin fee in the report as per our T&Cs.

    All bonuses are shown as a minus if a bonus was shown in a plus manner it would increase the win or decrease the loss which makes no sense.

    If you would like me to explain it in more details please give a shout on skype or msn.

    Thanks

    Shaun



     
  3.  
    lauferb

    lauferb Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 26, 2011
    the following is what I see in the "program commission structure" page in the affiliate back-office system:

    revenueshare
    Merchant: TrioBet
    commissionbase: Revenue
    lvl1break: <= 12500
    lvl1: 25 %
    lvl2break: 12500.01 - 30000
    lvl2: 30 %
    lvl3break: 30000.01 - 100000000000
    lvl3: 35 %
    lvl4: 35 %
    adminfee: 0 %

    1. as you can see adminfee is 0%, is there a mistake in this page? or is there something that I dont understand?

    2. I did not understand the bonus issue, does this mean that welcome bonus that is given to new players is taken off my profit?


    thank you
     
  4.  
    Shaun O'Neill

    Shaun O'Neill Affiliate Program Representative

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    Mar 26, 2011
    Lauferb

    The 15% admin that we have disscussed is done automatically, the admin fee that you see in your commison strucue is set at 0% because this is a total seprate thing, we have the option to set up two admin fees but we have chossen to do one automatically.

    With regards to bonuses yes 100% they are removed prior to you getting commission this is standard with 99.99% of affiliate companies.

    If you would like to discuss this further let me know and I wil happily give you a call next week when you are free.

    Have a great weekend.

    Regards

    Shaun

     
  5.  
    lauferb

    lauferb Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 27, 2011
    hi sean,
    thanks for the offer to call but there is no need for it, I belive that it'd be best to discuss things here in the forum since other affiliates may also find this interresting and helpful

    questions:

    1. gross-revenue (the field that is shown in the affiliate back-office report "Earning Report")
    Is this the amount that my players lost this month?
    Does this figure include the welcome bonus that was given by triobet to them or only the cache that players deposited and lost?

    2. calcularing the profit percent after admin fee:

    profit% = (gross revenus - 15% * gross revenus) * 25%
    profit% = (85% * gross revenus) * 25%
    profit% = 21.25%

    so in conclusion, is it correct that affiliate's profit (for first level) is 21.25% from gross revenue ?

    thanks
     
  6.  
    Shaun O'Neill

    Shaun O'Neill Affiliate Program Representative

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    Mar 27, 2011
    Lauferb

    We dont ever state you will earn on gross revnue if you read the terms and conditions which you agreed to when you opened your account it very clearly states what you get paid on and what is deducted.

    Gross = Gross this is without any deductions.

    With regards to you calculations once again we dont pay on gross you get paid on net and as i said in one of my previous replies we also deduct the bonus cost to producve the net revnue calculation.

    I am not really sure of what you really are trying to achive by having this thread as our partner programs have some of the clearest t&cs in the business plus our back office reporting even show the admin fee that we deduct whilst most other companies just simply hide it.



    Thanks

    Shaun



     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2011
  7.  
    lauferb

    lauferb Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 27, 2011
    you did not answer to my question my friend:
    is it correct that affiliate's profit (for first level) is 21.25% from total amount that is a loss from players that affiliates bring ?
     
  8.  
    Shaun O'Neill

    Shaun O'Neill Affiliate Program Representative

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    Mar 27, 2011
    Lauferb


    I think you will find i did answer your question

    "With regards to you calculations once again we dont pay on gross you get paid on net and as i said in one of my previous replies we also deduct the bonus cost to produve the net revnue calculation."

    As you can i did answer it but i didnt give youa % of teh gross as you wanted becasuse it would not be a valid answer.

    Thanks

    Shaun

     
  9.  
    Shaun O'Neill

    Shaun O'Neill Affiliate Program Representative

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    Mar 27, 2011
    Lauferb


    I think you will find i did answer your question

    "With regards to you calculations once again we dont pay on gross you get paid on net and as i said in one of my previous replies we also deduct the bonus cost to produve the net revnue calculation."

    As you can i did answer it but i didnt give you a % of the gross as you wanted becasuse it would not be a valid answer.

    Thanks

    Shaun

     
  10.  
    lauferb

    lauferb Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 27, 2011
    ok so let's take another affiliation program for example: affiliate lounge
    they give 25% rev share to affiliates (first level) same as triobet,
    when I look in the report I see very clearly that the profit that I get is 25% from the net revenue

    in triobet's affiliation program the profit is actually 21.25%
    the admin fee is not connected to me, I consider all fees together, in triobet it's 21.25% isn't it?

    second question: gross-revenue (the field that is shown in the affiliate back-office report "Earning Report")
    Does this the amount include the welcome bonuses? for example:

    a player registered and deposited 100 euro and got 100 welcome bonus,
    than he lost 150 euro,
    what will show the report in the field of "gross-revenue"?
    150 euro or 50 euro?

    thanks
     
  11.  
    Shaun O'Neill

    Shaun O'Neill Affiliate Program Representative

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    Mar 27, 2011
    Lauferb

    You get paid 25% of the net revenue this is a fact, you do not get paid 21.25% as you keep bringing up. The admin of 15% is related to teh actionsof your players so this is connected to you.

    I am not in a place to comment regarding affiliate lounge.

    Once again Gross revenue it without any deductions for example

    Bet €100 / win €50 = gross rev of €50.

    I assuming you have some issues with a program charging you admin fee, even though most do and most just simply hide it yet we display in very clearly in our report and and in the terms and conditions.

    Regards

    Shaun


     
  12.  
    lauferb

    lauferb Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 27, 2011
    I am simply trying to understand the numbers, nothing more than this
    working with so many affiliate programs made me confused so I am making it more simple for myself: trying to understand profit from affiliate programs.
    this is the report that I took from your backoffice today:
    [​IMG]
    I see in the report Gross revenue that is 1277.36 euro and net revenue that is 882.86 euro
    I make for myself a scale, let's call it "scaleX" is means: percent of profit from (total bets from players that I bring - total wins of them)
    accordingly I calculate profit of the affiliate programs this means that scaleX the profit from triobet program is 227.71 / 1277.36, and this gives 17.8%
    admin fee and other things are not interesting to me, I simply calculate profit of affiliate programs

    in triobet's affiliate program, please correct me if I'm wrong but the value of ScaleX is 17.8%
    meaning that profit is 17.8 percent from what players lost in the casino
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2011
  13.  
    Shaun O'Neill

    Shaun O'Neill Affiliate Program Representative

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    Mar 28, 2011
    Lauferb

    I can understand what are saying by working with so many companies makes you confussed but to be honest looking at what you are trring to do with this thread you are making your life harder.

    The formula that you have used below is not how we work any of your commision out and i would advice agaisnt using this to work our the % profit, simply being that the data chnages on a daily basis plus you are adding together multiple products. If you look from from you worked this to today the % would have changed.

    i think it is a good idea to know what % margin you have on the various products you promote but it would not sugest you add them to together.

    Thanks

    Shaun

     
  14.  
    lauferb

    lauferb Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 28, 2011
    ok thanks

    b.t.w I wrote false information before, I just found out that also aff. lounge charge admin fee and the value of the net revenue is after deducting it + the bonuses

    sorry for this

    but it is interesting to start to understand the formulas, basically I think that it's important for affiliates to understand exactly how profit is calculated don't you agree?

    cheers :D
     
  15.  
    Topponline

    Topponline Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 28, 2011
    Just my two cents in this thread.

    The general issue that Lauferb is bringing up is something that we noticed quite a while back. We were used to working with "Old School" casino affiliate programs where the formula tended to be something like:

    Gross win (minus) actual bonusing (minus actual chargebacks) = Net win,

    They would then pay you a percentage of their idea of net win. The program absorbs the cost of, payment processing, customer support, general administration, any license fees, taxes etc.

    Basically, if an honest player deposited 100 dollars, and lost all of it, the affiliate would receive 25 dollars if he was on 25%. Just about any Microgaming operation would be a good example of this math.

    Then came the New School, they are primarily Scandinavian facing (And Baltic). They mostly use Netrefer affiliate software (Nordicbet/triobet being a noted exception).

    Im going to be careful in not naming so many of these. but in general their idea of defining "Net Win" is completely different. They will use the method from their accounting.

    Gross Revenue
    Minus
    Actual cost of processing
    Minus
    actual cost to software providers (15+%)
    Minus
    actual bonusing
    Minus
    Any relevant variable costs

    They mostly call this an admin fee or license fee or something similar. And it will vary between 15% and 30%!!

    The harder it is to drag it out of your AM, the higher it is bound to be. With a few very notable exceptions, this is only mentioned in the T&C and does not show in the backends. There one mostly sees the term "Net Gaming" which has gotten the new meaning.

    When you question this practice, the ingrained reponse is:
    This is the industry standard..
    Everyone does it this way...

    We have a spreadsheet of the leading programs, and have found that not a single one does it excactly the same.

    Although it is not our favorite program we have to commend Mr. Green, they are the only ones who show line by line what they deduct. Transparency is key to making a semi educated choice.

    We have unfortunately found that thes programs are the best at extracting player value in their target markets. If Lauferb is targeting Estonia/Latvia, Triobet are probably a good ticket.

    So in sum, if we are able to get 30-35% percent deals with Microgaming operators. We need 45-50% deals with Netent/Scandi operations. And they seem to be willing to pay it.

    Cheers
     
  16.  
    lauferb

    lauferb Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Mar 28, 2011
    I would suggest the following:

    create a scale that everybody can understand and than make a public list that everybody can see and measure affiliate programs according to this scale

    the scale that I suggest is what I calculate as Z in the formula below (the name Z does not matter actually):

    B: total money that players actually deposited in the casino and bet (this does not include bonuses of course)

    W: total winnings

    B-W: total bets minus total wins

    Z: percent of (B-W) that is a profit that goes to the affiliate

    we know Z for triobet affiliate program, it's 17.8% for first level
    now there is a need to add other affiliate programs to this list

    basically I believe that a list like this would be helpful to affiliates and web sites & affiliate forum that include a list like this would become more popular comparing to other affiliate sites

    also a list like this would contribute to the goal of making things more transparent in the online casino industry

    this scale is not the most important one when mesuring affiliate program, for example it's possible that a certain affiliate program would have a high value but affiliates' profit would be low because players simply dont like the casinos that are offered,

    but still I think that a list like this would take affiliation in the online casino industry one step forward

    any thoughts? for or against?
     
  17.  
    Shaun O'Neill

    Shaun O'Neill Affiliate Program Representative

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    Mar 28, 2011
    Lauferb

    You are confuissing what the previous poster is saying the forumla that you come up withto get 17.8% has nothing to do with teh actual % you are paid, what you have worked out is simple the pay out %e.g. the margin on our products.

    Thanks

    Shaun

    QUOTE=lauferb;25350]I would suggest the following:

    create a scale that everybody can understand and than make a public list that everybody can see and measure affiliate programs according to this scale

    the scale that I suggest is what I calculate as Z in the formula below (the name Z does not matter actually):

    B: total money that players actually deposited in the casino and bet (this does not include bonuses of course)

    W: total winnings

    B-W: total bets minus total wins

    Z: percent of (B-W) that is a profit that goes to the affiliate

    we know Z for triobet affiliate program, it's 17.8% for first level
    now there is a need to add other affiliate programs to this list

    basically I believe that a list like this would be helpful to affiliates and web sites & affiliate forum that include a list like this would become more popular comparing to other affiliate sites

    also a list like this would contribute to the goal of making things more transparent in the online casino industry

    this scale is not the most important one when mesuring affiliate program, for example it's possible that a certain affiliate program would have a high value but affiliates' profit would be low because players simply dont like the casinos that are offered,

    but still I think that a list like this would take affiliation in the online casino industry one step forward

    any thoughts? for or against?[/QUOTE]
     
  18.  
    lauferb

    lauferb Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Apr 4, 2011
    sorry for late reply

    The rev share vs margin (that is b.t.w very interesting thing that I learnt from this thread thanks to Topponline) is less important actually, what is more important is the profit. the bottom line.

    If triobet or any other casino decides to pay any amount to a third party like Netrefer it's none of my business actually but the result is: less profit to the affiliate, and the meaning of this is that the affiliation program is less attractive to affiliates.

    correctly I can say that triobet's affiliate program has a low profit comparing to others.
     
  19.  
    Vladi

    Vladi Affiliate Guard Dog Member

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    Excellent thread and very relevant to affiliates, no matter you try to spin it Shaun

    The 17.8% is very relevant, you might dismiss it as "the simple pay out" but that is what matters to an affiliate.

    Here is another example, a while ago we noticed that Bodog subtracts roughly 25% of the casino gross win in "licensing and processing fees". This makes their lowest tier of 25% commission 18.75% in reality.
     
  20.  
    Shaun O'Neill

    Shaun O'Neill Affiliate Program Representative

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    Apr 5, 2011
    Vladi

    I am not trying to put a spion on anything i am simply trying to explain wjayt it really means.

    The 25% that you are talking with bodog an dthe 17.8% margin thatis being talked about on thios thread is actually two completly differant things, let me explain:

    17.8% is the margin that are products are paying out do for example if the affiliate in question ony had sportsbook players and the bet €100 and lost €82.20 this would equal an 17.8% margin on our products.

    The 25% that is being dedducted is simply a charge much like the 15% that we charge.

    I hope the above helps to make it a big clearer.

    Regards

    Shaun



     

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