Be aware - Pinnacle Sports charges unreal banking fees

[TheBoy]

Pinnacle is one of the best sportsbooks but one of the worst affiliate programs IMO.
They claim that there are $50 banking fees when someone deposit via bank wire and the affiliates have to pay 30% ($15) furthermore they claim that there are 3%-4% banking fees on the other payment methods and the affiliates also have to pay 30% i.e. 0.9%-1.2% on every customer's deposit or withdrawal.
Currently I'm on Hot-Cold commission plan and my earnings are always near zero.
I have calculated that if I earn $300 and Pinnacle earn $700, according to Pinnacle there will be $680 banking fees and I will have to pay $204 and Pinnacle will have to pay $476 for banking fees! It's 68%!
Either their Hot-Cold commission plan isn't real and is in their favor or their banking fees are not real.
I have contacted many affiliate managers and most of them told me that customer transaction fees don't affect the commission.
I will be grateful if AGD can help.

 

[RyanH]

Hi all,

TheBoy and I have discussed this in detail privately. I would however like to correct the numbers that are listed in TheBoy’s post above and clarify our approach to banking fees.

Yes, affiliates are charged 30% of the banking fees that we incur for processing player deposits and withdrawals.

These banking fees are not new and they are not hidden - we are very clear in our terms and conditions that banking fees will be deducted and at what percentage. We also provide detailed reporting on these fees in the affiliate system. I am more than happy to walk any affiliates that may be concerned about these fees through these detailed reports, should they like me to.

It is worth highlighting that we also charge players for making more than one withdrawal in a calendar month. 30% of any such charge made to an affiliated player is credited to that affiliate. So the calculations do work both ways and it is entirely possible for affiliate banking fees to be positive.

Banking fees are directly linked to deposit/withdrawal methods and amounts. While fees do play a part in arriving at a net affiliate revenue figure for any given period, they are not linked to this figure. This I think is the main cause of confusion and alarm in TheBoy’s post.

Depending on the affiliate’s commission type, affiliate revenue is either linked to player wins and losses, or betting volume.

As affiliate revenue (and indeed our revenue) is not directly linked to banking fees, it is difficult to apply the correct calculations to the specific example provided by TheBoy above, focusing on a revenue figure as it does.

Using a relevant, real-life banking fees calculation instead:

In the past 6 months, affiliate player net deposits = $4,993.02

Total accumulated banking fees on that amount = $296.69

Affiliate’s share at 30% = $89.01 (1.78%)
Our share at 70% = $207.68 (4.16%)

Nowhere close to the amounts or percentages quoted in TheBoy’s post above.

I appreciate that we may be unique in passing on banking fees to affiliates, but then most affiliate programs are unique in their affiliate offering.

No program is perfect and inevitably, despite our openness on this issue, some individuals will remain unhappy with any such fees applied to their account.

While I would like to please every single affiliate partner all of the time, this is, unfortunately, an unrealistic goal. Although it is one that myself and the team will continue to try and achieve.

On a positive note, as we do not offer player bonuses, there are no fees deducted for these. We also have no minimum activity requirement for commission withdrawals and pay commission every week, for the lifetime of any referred players.

Thank you,

Ryan Henderson
Head of Affiliates
Pinnacle Sports

 

[TheBoy]

The numbers that I have given are in proportion to the current situation.
Currently 64.5% from my earnings goes to banking fees and it's fact!
When I posed the numbers that percent was 68%. Ryan, please confirm this.
IMO it's logical to expect similar banking fees in the next 6 months but Ryan told me that it's not logical! And this is funny.
That percent may be 38% but also it may be 98%.

 

[TheBoy]

Ryan, you don't have bravery and virtue to acknowledge that currently 64.5% from my earnings goes to banking fees.

You try to manipulate the affiliates:

It is worth highlighting that we also charge players for making more than one withdrawal in a calendar month. 30% of any such charge made to an affiliated player is credited to that affiliate. So the calculations do work both ways and it is entirely possible for affiliate banking fees to be positive.

If you find only one affiliate who have more then 10 active players and whose banking fees are positive I will leave this industry as an affiliate and as a player.

Also you try to confuse the affiliates and hide some facts:

Banking Fees That Affiliate Has To Pay / Affiliate Player Net Deposits = 1.78%

Banking Fees That Affiliate Has To Pay / Affiliate Earnings = 64.5%

These are two different things!

 

[RyanH]

TheBoy,

“You try to manipulate the affiliates:

It is worth highlighting that we also charge players for making more than one withdrawal in a calendar month. 30% of any such charge made to an affiliated player is credited to that affiliate. So the calculations do work both ways and it is entirely possible for affiliate banking fees to be positive.

If you find only one affiliate who have more then 10 active players and whose banking fees are positive I will leave this industry as an affiliate and as a player.”

RH - Please stop accusing me of things. I am not manipulating anyone. Of course it is possible for fees to be positive. I’m looking at a report that shows me exactly that information now.

As an example - a single individual from your player group makes 3 withdrawals via bankwire in a month. The first is free to the player but your share of our fee is $15. The 2 further withdrawals by the player are charged to him at $50 each and you are credited 2 x $15 = $30. Your net banking fees in this example are -$15 + $30 = $15.

“Also you try to confuse the affiliates and hide some facts:

Banking Fees That Affiliate Has To Pay / Affiliate Player Net Deposits = 1.78%
Banking Fees That Affiliate Has To Pay / Affiliate Earnings = 64.5%

These are two different things!”

RH - Yes they are two different things and this is a very important point. Your original post mixed them up, this is why I felt the need to post my reply and correct your figures.

From your posts here:

“Currently 64.5% from my earnings goes to banking fees and it's fact!
When I posed the numbers that percent was 68%. Ryan, please confirm this.
That percent may be 38% but also it may be 98%.”

RH - Thank you for sharing this information. As you can see the number has already changed in the few days we have been discussing this.

As I have explained to you privately, for over a month banking fees were 0% of your earnings as no deposits or withdrawals where made by your players.

We can continue to go around in circles on this issue but here are some facts I would like you to confirm:

Your account with us has been open for just 6 months.
Your very small base of active players are currently winning.
Despite this, because of our Hot/Cold commission structure, you are earning positive commission and your current commission balance is positive.

I am sorry that you are unhappy with your current earnings. I am unable to change them.

The only person that can realistically influence them is you. We will, of course, do what we can to help. If you need reviews, banners, email templates etc we are happy to work with you to develop your affiliate account with us.

If you are still upset about the way we operate, I suggest you remove us from your website and focus your efforts on more productive partnerships. This is a business relationship, you are free to end it at any time.

I really don’t have much more to add. We have already had this entire conversation via email. I hope that having it in public has further helped to clarify things.

I sincerely wish you and the AGD readers a very Happy Christmas/Hanukkah/Holiday season.

Thank you,

Ryan.

 

[TheBoy]

Ryan,

Of course it is possible for fees to be positive. I’m looking at a report that shows me exactly that information now.

Please inform us when you find such a player.

As an example - a single individual from your player group makes 3 withdrawals via bankwire in a month. The first is free to the player but your share of our fee is $15. The 2 further withdrawals by the player are charged to him at $50 each and you are credited 2 x $15 = $30. Your net banking fees in this example are -$15 + $30 = $15.

As I have explained to you privately, for over a month banking fees were 0% of your earnings as no deposits or withdrawals where made by your players.

You try to manipulate again. Don't make your calculations over single month or single player. My overall banking fees are very negative and over some months banking fees were more then 100% of my earnings.

Your very small base of active players are currently winning.
Despite this, because of our Hot/Cold commission structure, you are earning positive commission and your current commission balance is positive.

As I told you I'm a pro gambler and I know but also you know very well that -$x.xxx easy can be +$x.xxx

I am sorry that you are unhappy with your current earnings. I am unable to change them.

Yes, You can change them if you cut your unreal banking fees (this is the core of the problem).

Here is one example that shows how much your banking fees are unreal.

If someone deposit 1000 EUR via Moneybookers you claim that banking fees are 30 EUR and affiliates have to pay 9 EUR but actually the fees for this transaction are 0.5 EUR. This is 60x more then real fees.

 

[RyanH]

“Please inform us when you find such a player.”

RH – I just have.

“You try to manipulate again. Don't make your calculations over single month or single player. My overall banking fees are very negative and over some months banking fees were more then 100% of my earnings”

RH – Where is the manipulation? I am highlighting numbers relevant to this conversation.

“As I told you I'm a pro gambler and I know but also you know very well that -$x.xxx easy can be +$x.xxx”

RH – I cannot work with you if you want to talk about ‘ifs’, ‘maybes’ and ‘$x,xxx’. All the actual numbers and calculations I have shown in this thread are real.

“Yes, You can change them if you cut your unreal banking fees (this is the core of the problem).”

RH – I am unable to change them

“Here is one example that shows how much your banking fees are unreal.
If someone deposit 1000 EUR via Moneybookers you claim that banking fees are 30 EUR and affiliates have to pay 9 EUR but actually the fees for this transaction are 0.5 EUR. This is 60x more then real fees.”

RH – once again you are quoting 2 different figures. The player fees may be 0.5 EUR but what players are charged by payment providers is not what operators are charged. I have already explained this to you.

I agree they charge us operators too much. At least we finally agree on something..

I am a very patient man and generally a nice guy, but this conversation has gone on long enough. If you have something new to discuss with me I am happy to help.

If you continue to simply say the same thing in a slightly different way, I’m afraid I can no longer be involved.

Thank you,

Ryan.

 

[TheBoy]

Ryan,

“Please inform us when you find such a player.”

RH – I just have.

Prove this and I will leave this industry.

“You try to manipulate again. Don't make your calculations over single month or single player. My overall banking fees are very negative and over some months banking fees were more then 100% of my earnings”

RH – Where is the manipulation? I am highlighting numbers relevant to this conversation.

Choosing one single month in which banking fees are 0% and don't talking about months in which banking fees are more then 100% is classic manipulation and hiding the facts. I talk about overall numbers and you talk only about numbers that are on your side.

“Yes, You can change them if you cut your unreal banking fees (this is the core of the problem).”

RH – I am unable to change them

You are a Head of Affiliates and you should have a influence.

“Here is one example that shows how much your banking fees are unreal.
If someone deposit 1000 EUR via Moneybookers you claim that banking fees are 30 EUR and affiliates have to pay 9 EUR but actually the fees for this transaction are 0.5 EUR. This is 60x more then real fees.”

RH – once again you are quoting 2 different figures. The player fees may be 0.5 EUR but what players are charged by payment providers is not what operators are charged. I have already explained this to you.

I don't believe that operator are charged more then players but even if this is true 3%-4% is really high. Pinnacle operates with very low margins (2%-3%) and with 3%-4% banking fees Pinnacle will go bankrupt.

If some affiliate managers from the other programs have permission to share data about banking fees, it will be great.

I very rare argue with someone at forums but in this case I'm feeling deceptive.

Thank you,
TheBoy

 

[TheBoy]

“Currently 64.5% from my earnings goes to banking fees and it's fact!
When I posed the numbers that percent was 68%. Ryan, please confirm this.
That percent may be 38% but also it may be 98%.”

RH - Thank you for sharing this information. As you can see the number has already changed in the few days we have been discussing this.

Currently 78.31% of my earnings goes to banking fees!

 

[Sharp Square]

Not trying to hijack thread here but have a quick question. I know Pinnacle no longer accepts players from the US market is this the case for affiliates also ? Or can you still sign up as an affiliate being from the US and simply target non us customers to bring in ?

 

[lots0]

This has been an interesting thread to follow.

@TheBoy - Anytime fees exceed earnings, I don't care the situation... I would be voting with my feet.
Best to move on, as Ryan suggested.

Sometimes the affiliate and the program just don't match up. Your demographic might be better suited to a different Book, there are several good ones to choose from.

@Ryan... Those fees are unreal, I know the fees are not entirely your programs fault. But no matter who's fault the high fees are, it looks to me like it's not really worth an affiliates time to promote you guys.

 

[Viktar]

Pinnacle is one of the best sportsbooks but one of the worst affiliate programs IMO.
They claim that there are $50 banking fees when someone deposit via bank wire and the affiliates have to pay 30% ($15) furthermore they claim that there are 3%-4% banking fees on the other payment methods and the affiliates also have to pay 30% i.e. 0.9%-1.2% on every customer's deposit or withdrawal.
Currently I'm on Hot-Cold commission plan and my earnings are always near zero.
I have calculated that if I earn $300 and Pinnacle earn $700, according to Pinnacle there will be $680 banking fees and I will have to pay $204 and Pinnacle will have to pay $476 for banking fees! It's 68%!
Either their Hot-Cold commission plan isn't real and is in their favor or their banking fees are not real.
I have contacted many affiliate managers and most of them told me that customer transaction fees don't affect the commission.
I will be grateful if AGD can help.

This is just ridiculous!

 

[ThePOGG]

This is an interesting thread to read through.

Knowing a bit about the fees that operators are charged by Neteller/Moneybookers, i can say that they are exactly what Pinnacle represent and as Pinnacle consistently offer the lowest house edge games in the industry both in their casino and their sportsbook i can see why they have to pass some of those fees along to affiliates.

Personally Pinnacle will be a program i'll be working with in the near future as the reputation amongst players is outstanding and i very much approve of the low house edge and feel it's a big factor in Pinnacle's rise in the industry. That trumps other concerns for me, but i can understand why it wouldn't for others.