400 Affiliates/Rival charging affiliates for contributions to progressive jackpots

S

Steve S

Guest
I posted this over at GPWA yesterday:

This is an issue that has been building for about three months for me. So, please forgive me if, despite my best efforts, this turns into a rant.

I run a tape every morning of what each affiliate program owes me. I save them.

I noticed how on the very last day of November 2009, the commissions due to me from 400 Affiliates dropped by about $1,300. As I had a large player at Paradise 8, I asked Jax about the reduction of the amount due me in commissions and was told that the player in question had hit a jackpot and cashed out.

On the last day of December 2009 I experienced another drop in the commissions due to me from 400 Affiliates. This time the reduction was a little over $1,100. Again, I questioned the decrease in my monthly commission. Again, I was given the same answer. Player won and cashed out at the end of the month.

On the last day of January 2010, the same thing happened again. My commissions due took another hit. This time the damage was only $450. At this point, after three months in a row, my suspicions had been aroused. I told Jax that I did not feel it likely that someone would hit a jackpot on the last day of the month - three months in a row.

After a few days, I was told that the reductions in the amount of commission due to me for the last three months - on the last day of each month - were not due to a player winning a jackpot and cashing out after all. Instead, I was being charged for contributions to the progressive jackpot pool.

What? I had never heard of such a thing. Apparently, 5% (or 10% - it varies by game I am told) of every dollar played by my players on progressive slots is contributed to the progressive slot pool. My share is my affiliate percentage of that 5%, or approx 2%. And this is deducted from my affiliate earnings at the end of the month.

I have a number of problems with this.

First, I was never notified of this. My agreement with 400 Affiliates is 40% of player losses. I checked their affiliate website and could find no mention of this charge to affiliates. Not in the commission agreement, not in the FAQ, not in the legal baloney. From where I stand, they have no right to subtract these amounts from my affiliate earnings and they now owe me almost $3K. If they want this kind of arrangement going forward, they should notify me so that I can decide for myself if this is something I want to be a partner to.

Second, I can operate all month thinking I have a fairly decent sized payday coming from 400 only to find on the first of the following month that a large chunk of my commission is gone to a calculation I have no way of anticipating the impact of. I also feel uncomfortable to be expecting my commission to drop at the end of every month.

Third, this has the potential to be a big downer for the affiliate. Let me explain:

I have been told that 5% of every dollar played on a progressive game goes to the progressive jackpot pool. For the sake of simplicity assume that the affiliate portion is 2% - I am told that the affiliate program pays the other 3%. If your player wins a progressive jackpot, you the affiliate are credited back with all of the contributions which were previously deducted from your affiliate earnings - for that one player only.

Suppose a player deposits $20K and plays progressives and never wins anything. To make the calculations easier assume a 40% commission rate. After the player loses their $20K, the affiliate commission is $8k, but, 2% of the $20k played thru the progressive games is deducted from those commissions. This amount would be $400. The net commission is $7,600 - 38%. Nothing to cry about there.

However, suppose this same player, on their very last spin before they have exhausted their $20K deposit hits a $100K jackpot. Now, the player is up $80K. The affiliate has contributed $400 to the progressive jackpot, but they have been credited that same amount back. The affiliate is effectively even. Now the player plays $80K on progressives, wins nothing and cashes out with their original $20k.

The player is even. However, the affiliate has had their account charged for 2% X $80K in progressive play or $1,600. Since the player is even when cashing out, the affiliate makes no money on that player, but, they will have $1,600 charged against commissions earned from other players. Doesn't sound that great, does it.

In my case,I finally get a big player who deposited $22K and lost it all. You would think I would be making somewhere around $9k as my commission. Not even close. I have been told that this player wagered a little over $138,000 on progressive slots. I have been charged almost $3k for contributions to the progressive jackpots. My question to 400 is how can the player have played $138,000 if they only deposited $22K unless they won at some point. And, why have I not been given credit for those wins as I was told the program is supposed to work.

400 and I have been talking about this since the first of February. Three days ago I was told that that my account was going to be audited to determine how everything was calculated and get to the bottom of things. Jax assures me that numerous messages have been sent to Rival. Jason too has told me he would contact Rival about this. To me, this should be easy to figure out. I sat in on an IRS audit with a client of mine all day yesterday and I can guarantee you that we thru calculations much more difficult than this. I cannot see why it would take more than an hour to figure this out, let alone three days. Frustration is starting to set in on my part.

I have been told by other Rival affiliate managers that the deduction for contributions to progressive jackpots are deducted in real time from the affiliates earnings. This would seem to contradict what I am being told by 400. I have also been told that is an option as to whether to charge the affiliates for the contributions to progressive jackpots. This again would seem to contradict what 400 has told me - effectively that this is a Rival-wide policy.

Again, I feel strongly that I should have been notified before they started making these deductions. If they did notify me and I missed it - then bad on me. However, I really do not recall receiving an email to that effect nor did I see any evidence of any kind of notification on their (400) website.

What I would like - other than the return of the amounts deducted from my commissions - is to know if anyone else has experienced the same thing?

Just how exactly are these deductions supposed to be handled by Rival affiliate programs? Are they all the same?

If there are Rival affiliate programs that do not charge the contributions to the progressive jackpots to affiliates, I would like to hear from you as I may have an opening for a Rival casino to promote.
 
S

Steve S

Guest
Bonustreak:

I forgot to add, that I can no longer run reports that reflect the original commission due to me for any of those periods. It is as if the "adjustment" they make retroactivly adjust the stats. I would have no absolute proof if I had not retained my daily adding machine tape runs.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Guard Dog

Guard Dog
Staff member
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Messages
11,215
Reaction score
3,143
I am getting very frustrated and disillusioned with Rival, but this seems to be more of a 400Affiliates issue than anything else. I'll talk with several affiliate managers and if 400Affiliates are deducting fees like this without telling affiliates, then they can soon expect to be the only rogue Rival in the bunch.

I have seen similar with DVG at 400Affiliates, but that is the only one. I would have $0 in deposits, but $-2000 in revenue. That happened for a long time with DVG. Had they bundled earnings, I would have been wiped out on all casinos at Rival.
 

NDN

Affiliate Guard Dog Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
99
Reaction score
0
I have a hunch this is a wider issue and 400 Affiliates isn't the only program doing this.

My take:

I run an "end of month" stats report on the 1st of the month (and again on the 2nd because some programs take 24-48 hours to completely update. I would then consider the stats finalized and would have a tally of what each program "should" owe me.

For a few months in a row, Rockbet would consistently pay me less than what I was expecting. I would then log-in to check my stats, and the amount owed was lower than what it was on the last day of the month as well as on the 1st/2nd when I did the final report for the previous month.

I asked John about this and he didn't really have an explanation as to why it was happening. By the time I had received the payments each month, the stats had already changed so everything looked fine on his end (as far as the stats matching the payments). He had his team look into it as well and they couldn't determine that anything was wrong.

The problem stopped happening shortly after and it hasn't happened again (as far as I have noticed anyways).

It seemed odd to me that we couldn't figure out the cause of the problem, but the mystery might be solved if it's the same problem as others are having...
 

dominique

Certification Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2006
Messages
1,074
Reaction score
6
Rival continues to disappoint.

I should be making nice money there, and I don't.

I had such great hopes for them, coming in to replace Microgaming in the US, the games are not bad IMO, and I just don't understand what the issue is.

Starting to look like it's a bunch of issues lumped together.
 
S

Steve S

Guest
Jax has contacted me via skype and told me that I mis-quoted him in my post above in regard to his initial response to my inquires in December. He is correct. In the interest of fairness, here is his message to me made on the private 400 affiliate forum:

Hi Steve,

This is interesting...... I sent you an email on Dec 7th when I got your email and on the Dec 9th with a answer. I'm assuming that you didn't receive them and instead of contacting me again, you wanted to post on GPWA.

Below are the emails that I sent to you. Please let me know if you wish me to provide screenshots to verify the dates in which they were sent.

Sent Dec 7, 2009 @ 11:56 AM PST:
"Hi Steve,

I'll look into it right away and try to figure it out for you. I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

Regards,

Jaxon"

Sent Dec 9, 2009 @ 1:46 PM PST:
"Hi Steve,

Sorry about the delayed reply.

As you suspected in your email, the player won a jackpot of $xxxx.xx, which resulted in you seeing the $xxxx.xx as her overall losses. The player also cashed out $xxxx on Dec 1, but then reversed that cash out on the same day and lost it all.

I hope that helps Steve and please let me know if you have any questions.

Regards,

Jaxon"

I am disappointed that I had to reply to this post. I put affiliate issues ahead of everything and anyone that has ever emailed me knows that I reply within a "timely manner". Sometimes, I may not know the answer, so I have to write Rival support and wait for their reply to me before I can get back the the affiliate. However, I always stay in touch with the affiliate to keep them in the loop as to how things are proceeding and developing in cases that take a long time to resolve.

Regards,

Jaxon
 
S

Steve S

Guest
Dominique:

It is not that I am not making money at Rival casinos, quite the contrary. Paradise 8 has been my best performing casino save one for a number of months now.

However, I feel that I should have been notified that as an affiliate I was going to be making contributions to a progressive jackpot pool, and, given a clear explanation of how the program was going to work, what the obligations would be for casino owner, affiliate program and affiliate along with a discussion of possible implications to me and effects upon my earnings. I cannot recall receiving any such correspondence from any Rival casino nor do I see any reference to this on any of the affiliate program websites. We, as affiliates, should have been given the opportunity to decide if we wanted to participate in this or not. As it is, it was snuck into the equation without notification.

Again, if I was notified of a change to my commission agreement and I missed it, then I should have to live with the results and decide to quit promoting casinos that have this policy in effect if I want to.

It also appears that this is happening at many if not all Rival casinos. But, one aff mgr has told me that the deductions are made in real time, not at the end of the month. Another has communicated to me that the affiliate program has the ability to turn on or off the settings that charge affiliates for the contributions to progressive jackpot pools and also the setting that gives us a credit back for the contributions one of our players made to the pool when they win.

I am in the process of contacting aff mgrs at RTG and Vegas Tech casinos to see if there are any deductions at these programs of which I am unaware, including progressive jackpot contributions.

What I am waiting for right now is an explanation from 400 of how these deductions for contributions to progressive jackpots were calculated and why it "appears" that I have not been given credit back for wins. Further, I want to know if they plan on refunding all of the net deductions from my affiliate commissions for a "program" I was never given notification of. If this is resolved I have no problem continuing with 400 and Paradise 8, or any Rival casino for that matter. I just want to be given a "choice" - a chance to make a decision up front as far as my willingness to be subject to these conditions should they continue on in their present form.
 

bonustreak

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 15, 2006
Messages
7,409
Reaction score
986
Another has communicated to me that the affiliate program has the ability to turn on or off the settings that charge affiliates for the contributions to progressive jackpot pools and also the setting that gives us a credit back for the contributions one of our players made to the pool when they win.

Interesting
 

gamingaffiliatesguide

Affiliate Guard Dog Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2010
Messages
122
Reaction score
44
My name got mentioned here by NDN so I'm posting for that reason mainly but I talked to Jaxon and this doesn't look like fun for him.

fyi I'm not the AM for Rockbet anymore.

I did get asked this by NDN and I think from Steve a few times. I honestly didn't know that the reason was for progressives. I asked Rival a few separate times why were commissions different on the last day of the month and the following day. I never got a good answer from Rival and passed on the message I got. I really had no clue and wasn't told of these contributions when progressives first launched I think in September 2008, I assumed that progressives had no effect on affiliate earnings. I think Jaxon is in the same position that he didn't know but was trying to get an answer. There isn't much for us to do when it comes to progressives as we only get a basic report but the rest is handled by Rival.

I'll see if I can find out how other software providers handle progressives.
 

Herd

Affiliate Guard Dog Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Messages
45
Reaction score
0
scenarios

scenario 1.

player deposits $100
player wins $500 on wheel of wealth slot

player plays progressive
player loses $500 on progressive

result affiliate gets slugged 2% of $500 = $10

Which means an affiliates earnings is $-10
Not a lot yet right?


scenario 2.

player deposit $100
player plays progressive
on the progressive slot, player wins $10000, and loses $10000 in a month from up and down play (eg player spins, wins $5, loses $5, wins $10, loses $5)

affiliates gets slugged $10,000 x 2% = $200

If you have a whale who does this, and deposits $20K, and has $150K in up down play, affiliate is getting slugged $3000


imo, a casino should be able to do this - but they need to spell it out to the advertiser that you will be charged 2% of each of your players progressive wager, and you will not see any earnings from a progressive wager, only from actual deposit losses( unless the casino wants to pay you a % of wager losses :eek: )

it looks like not all rivals are doing this, it looks like an end of month adjustment made by 400 affiliates to minimize contributions to progressive jackpots by passing half of it onto the advertiser and thereby increasing their profit margin - again they should be allowed to do this, as long as they spell it out.
 
S

Steve S

Guest
Herd:

That is exactly my point. We were never notified of this, they just started doing it. I check their (400) website and there is no mention of these deductions for progressive jackpots anywhere. Also, I know that these deductions are being made other Rival programs, as two other aff mgrs have confirmed this to me.

There is no way for the affiliate to come out even in this scenario. The bigger the player, the worse it gets. I finally catch a whale and now I am earning less than 2/3 our agreed upon commission rate because of this.

Another reason I am not happy about this deduction is that they (Rival) must have put some thought into this, evaluated the possible outcomes and decided that this was the best way to fund their progressives as they had to take the time to program the system to calculate and deduct these contributions. They had to know that it was only a matter of time until this came to a head and that it would have a negative impact upon affiliates and not only did not care, they did not think enough of us to let us know what was going on!

Furthermore, I looks as though I am not being given credit for player wins and no one can tell me why? Not even a "Gee, your right. We blew it. We'll fix it for you." Nothing. And it has been two weeks now.
 

bonusgeek

Affiliate Guard Dog Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
214
Reaction score
1
This is pretty confusing to me. I thought the way it worked was a nominal % of every dollar wagered went towards the progressive contribution. So if a player lost $1 on a progressive slot, maybe 5% went towards the progressive contribution and the other 95 cents would be counted as total revenue which we would earn 40% of.

It seems like they are double dipping us here. Affiliates shouldn't be paying a % of anything, it should be set up where the progressive contribution gets deducted from every dollar wagered, then we make 40% of the rest. In other words, if 5 cents of every dollar is already coming off the top, why would the affiliate program be taxing us additional monies let alone doing it under under the radar.
 

Nicolas-Johnson

Affiliate Program Representative
Joined
Feb 15, 2009
Messages
134
Reaction score
0
This is just a quick note to let everyone know that here at Regal Affiliates (the affiliate program for Rival Powered Vegas Regal Casino) we haven't, don't, and will not charge affiliates for progressive jackpot contributions.

We consider this a part of our marketing budget, like zero'ing out negative carry overs. We also promise to not only strive to make our program as affiliate friendly as possible but also work hand in hand with you; our partners.

If anyone has any questions regarding how we handle progressive jackpots or any other Rival related matter, please feel free to contact me via PM, email, chat (MSN nicolas_1875 at hotmail dot com); I'm here for you guys and gals!
 
S

Steve S

Guest
Nicolas-Johnson:

Thanks for the post. I now need a new Rival casino to promote. Do you have skype? Tax season has just started for me, so I am very busy right now. I'll be in touch though. Just may be a few days.
 

slotplayer

Affiliate Guard Dog Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Messages
1,844
Reaction score
307
it would be nice to know if 400G is doing this, I'm sitting at a -$3500. Mine could be just a winner.

just as an fyi, Red Returns did deduct for progressive contrib. At least to say they did when I first joined a couple of years ago. Not sure exactly if it's still the case since I don't promote them anymore.
 

Guard Dog

Guard Dog
Staff member
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Messages
11,215
Reaction score
3,143
it would be nice to know if 400G is doing this, I'm sitting at a -$3500. Mine could be just a winner.

just as an fyi, Red Returns did deduct for progressive contrib. At least to say they did when I first joined a couple of years ago. Not sure exactly if it's still the case since I don't promote them anymore.


They ARE doing this. It is just a matter of when they started, why they started, and why we should not all drop them like a rock.
 

Nicolas-Johnson

Affiliate Program Representative
Joined
Feb 15, 2009
Messages
134
Reaction score
0
I would like to make an amendment to what I said here + apologize

This is just a quick note to let everyone know that here at Regal Affiliates (the affiliate program for Rival Powered Vegas Regal Casino) we haven't, don't, and will not charge affiliates for progressive jackpot contributions.

We consider this a part of our marketing budget, like zero'ing out negative carry overs. We also promise to not only strive to make our program as affiliate friendly as possible but also work hand in hand with you; our partners.

If anyone has any questions regarding how we handle progressive jackpots or any other Rival related matter, please feel free to contact me via PM, email, chat (MSN nicolas_1875 at hotmail dot com); I'm here for you guys and gals!

I said what I did in all honesty, as that was what was explained to me since Day 1 (and I confirmed it worked that way, as I personally test an affiliate system before I work with it)

However, there was a change by our software provider which affected the way ANW is calculated. It went from being: "Deposits - Payouts - Chargebacks" to "Deposits - Payouts - Chargebacks - Progressive Contributions"

Based on our internal reports it appears the change was effective March 2009.

This was something that not only affected affiliates, but the way operators manage funds. As another affiliate manager explained; this is something that affected many operators, if not all.

We understand the need to treat our affiliate partners with respect and honesty, which is why the previous ANW calculation of Deposits-Withdrawals-Chargebacks will be put back in place by our provider so that affiliates are no longer charged for progressive jackpot contributions. This change will be effective Feb 1st 2010.


I have to apologize; there is no excuse for ignorance, but due to internal company miss-communications, I and all the managers that work for Vegas Regal Casino and Regal Affiliates were not aware of this change.

We will of course re-fund all amounts deducted from affiliates for progressive jackpot contributions. All affiliates that were affected by this issue will receive the funds back ASAP. We are going to take up to a week to calculate the amounts owed, contact the affiliates, inform them of what has happened and get them paid.

We have also had an internal meeting and talked with our provider so that we are, in every degree possible, up to date on the latest happenings to avoid such a regrettable situation from happening again in the future.

Again, my apologies, I would never knowingly partake in any form of under-handed affiliate treatment, nor would any of the employees, managers, and investors of Vegas Regal Casino and Regal Affiliates. We have a commitment to transparency and honest business. Even if it means admitting to a miss communication as serious and embarrassing as the one that happened.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
 
Top