Rivalwide Progressive Issue - Rogue Poll.

[bonusgeek]

Hi Peter-Jan,

For each individual affiliate, the deductions will never be the same from month to month and all affiliates will see different deductions. This is determined by the amount wagered by their tagged players and the affiliate rev share %. The calculation for the way deductions are currently set in the Rival system is (affiliates tagged players progressive wagering * 5-7%(dependent on progressive games played) * % of Rev Share). 5-7% is the amount of each wager that is deducted from each bet to keep the pot constantly growing. Each of our four progressive games deducts a varying %.

From what I understand from Rival and our own casino management, this is a normal policy in the industry and Rival’s progressive system is identical to one of the other software “giants”. We have confirmed with a number of operators, some as I mentioned accredited on some very big forums, that have identical policies in place. Overall in the industry, it is not abnormal to see progressive deductions.

Regards,

Jaxon

Hi Jax, so would you be at liberty to tell us whether or not the entire 5-7% of these progressive contributions actually goes into the progressive jackpot pool or if there are kickbacks to the software itself.

I am trying to take the affiliate out of the equation for a minute and think about what happens when a player is not tagged to an affiliate. I have a hard time believing that the casinos themselves would agree to a policy where they could end up loser on a particular progressive player even though the player lost their entire bankroll. Yet this is what has been happening with affiliates this whole time. I might be wrong but I am guessing this isn't the way it works. My guess is there is a margin of profit built into this 5-7% number and this is what the casinos fall back on to fund the progressive pool in such a situation.

Regardless affiliates need to be out of the equation with progressive contributions completely. I don't see how you can use money to fund a progressive pool that isn't there. Meaning if a player deposits $100 and plays for weeks off this deposit on a progressive, then eventually that $100 is going to go into the progressive pool which means there is no more money to fund the pool. Yet Rival is pulling this money out of thin air and just decides to use genuinely earned affiliates commissions to do it? This is very infair. If they want the progressive pool to grow from fantasy money, let them use their own revenues to do it instead of ours.

Or they need to do it by coins in like someone else mentioned so affiliates can't go backwards on a player which negates genuinely earned commissions by us. The bottom line is something seriously wrong with a system where a player can lose their entire bankroll, yet the affiliate ends up loser on that player even though they didn't beat the house out of a single red cent.

[bonustreak]

Enough has been said my vote has changed! Rival itself needs to stop sneaking around and doing predatory stuff against affiliates I am sick of it. If this was a legit change they would have notified the operators(I am aware that operators were never even informed!) and the affiliates first of this change regarding the progressives. It is jacked up and I would have said go to hell of course but at least I had the chance to decide if I wanted to continue to promote certain casinos!

[JSM_Jaxon]

Hi Jax, so would you be at liberty to tell us whether or not the entire 5-7% of these progressive contributions actually goes into the progressive jackpot pool or if there are kickbacks to the software itself.

I am trying to take the affiliate out of the equation for a minute and think about what happens when a player is not tagged to an affiliate. I have a hard time believing that the casinos themselves would agree to a policy where they could end up loser on a particular progressive player even though the player lost their entire bankroll. Yet this is what has been happening with affiliates this whole time. I might be wrong but I am guessing this isn't the way it works. My guess is there is a margin of profit built into this 5-7% number and this is what the casinos fall back on to fund the progressive pool in such a situation.

Regardless affiliates need to be out of the equation with progressive contributions completely. I don't see how you can use money to fund a progressive pool that isn't there. Meaning if a player deposits $100 and plays for weeks off this deposit on a progressive, then eventually that $100 is going to go into the progressive pool which means there is no more money to fund the pool. Yet Rival is pulling this money out of thin air and just decides to use genuinely earned affiliates commissions to do it? This is very infair. If they want the progressive pool to grow from fantasy money, let them use their own revenues to do it instead of ours.

Or they need to do it by coins in like someone else mentioned so affiliates can't go backwards on a player which negates genuinely earned commissions by us. The bottom line is something seriously wrong with a system where a player can lose their entire bankroll, yet the affiliate ends up loser on that player even though they didn't beat the house out of a single red cent.

Bonusgeek,

I can only explain this as I understand it as I'm not the programmer or the person(s) that set up this progressive system.

The 5-7% goes entirely to the pool and of that 5-7% the casinos are being deducted as well. Affiliates have been getting deducted and casinos have been getting the same deductions, but at a higher percentage than affiliates based on the affiliates rev-share (35% you, 65% us). Casino revenue as based on the same equation as affiliates and that is ANW. The progressive pool is coming from the casino's revenue since we are being deducted the for the same wagers, but it is coming from all the casinos, not just one. If a player wins the jackpot at a given casino, that casino is responsible for the replenishment of the seed amount of that progressive jackpot.

This whole issue has brought up a lot of questions from our affiliates, but it has also raised some concerns for the casinos and operators too. As I have said in other post, I will have more information once a decision is made by Rival and its operators regarding the progressive system.

Jaxon

[bonusgeek]

Bonusgeek,

I can only explain this as I understand it as I'm not the programmer or the person(s) that set up this progressive system.

The 5-7% goes entirely to the pool and of that 5-7% the casinos are being deducted as well. Affiliates have been getting deducted and casinos have been getting the same deductions, but at a higher percentage than affiliates based on the affiliates rev-share (35% you, 65% us). Casino revenue as based on the same equation as affiliates and that is ANW. The progressive pool is coming from the casino's revenue since we are being deducted the for the same wagers, but it is coming from all the casinos, not just one. If a player wins the jackpot at a given casino, that casino is responsible for the replenishment of the seed amount of that progressive jackpot.

This whole issue has brought up a lot of questions from our affiliates, but it has also raised some concerns for the casinos and operators too. As I have said in other post, I will have more information once a decision is made by Rival and its operators regarding the progressive system.

Jaxon

Thanks for your reply Jax. It looks like affiliates and casinos are sort of in the same boat with this then. Hopefully when Rival revamps the progressive system, it will be something affiliates and casinos are both happy with.

[lots0]

I would like to hear from someone at Rival before I make any decisions about blacklisting them. (added - I am talking about blacklisting RIVAL and not about blacklisting 400, I think that 400 is in the same boat as the affs in this matter.)

I do know one thing thou, Rival NEEDS to do some explaining to all of us and more important Rival needs to fix this as soon as possible.

I do believe that any further inaction on this issue by Rival would be cause to blacklist them.

[dendrite]

Can anyone tell me what the best tell-tale signs are that you have been affected by this progressive policy?

Perhaps one of the AMs would know?

Something that I have noticed at Rivals is an increase in 'odd' cash-out values. By that I mean, not round numbers, for example, rather than players cashing out $500, or $950 etc. like they used to, I'm seeing lots of cash-out values like $514.57, or $951.13 etc.

I am mostly seeing this with my bigger players, which I guess are the players most likely to be playing the jackpot games

So, could these odd values actually be an indicator of progressive contribution deductions, rather than actual cash-outs?

Or, is there a different, simple way to tell how badly we have been affected?

[Vladi]

It could be just that they are playing in another currency which is being converted back to $ in your affiliate account.

[dendrite]

It could be just that they are playing in another currency which is being converted back to $ in your affiliate account.

All US players in my case.

Just trying to figure out how we can find out how much we have unknowingly lost. We should at least be able to find out what this policy has cost us - that way we can make an informed decision as to whether we wish to promote Rival casinos in the future...

Hopefully, one of the AMs will be able to tell us how we can get this data when we log in to our accounts

[dendrite]

Wael, from AffiliateWIDE has responded with regards to this issue and Box24 Casino

Box24 Weekend Promotions

Hi dendrite

Sorry for taking sometime to get back to you.

Box24 Casino is not a White Label casino and our affiliate commission is based on wagering profit.

Thanks,
wael

[dominique]

Just got this:

Hi everyone,

It’s been a long process, but Rival and the collective operators have come to a decision regarding the Progressive system and deductions.

All progressive wins that were not credited to affiliates will be calculated over March and credited as a lump sum to the April commission payments. Effective March 1^st, 2010 for all Rival white-label properties, progressive deductions will now be carried forward in the case that an affiliate goes negative from the deduction. It is necessary to carry forward progressive deductions as it must be zero-sum to both the operator and affiliate to make sense.

Also occurring on March 1st, all fraud charges and progressive deductions (as mentioned above) will carry forward if an affiliate becomes negative. Fraud charges include chargebacks and/or processor seizures.

Detailed Description of Progressive System:

Affiliates will continue to have progressive contributions deducted and will continue to get credit for all progressive cash outs. Additionally, affiliates will receive credit for any progressive wagering losses once a player’s balance reaches 10% or less of the original jackpot win amount. Any progressive deductions will carry forward month on month if an account shall go negative. An affiliate will participate in the progressive deductions in the same way as an operator.

Example)

Player wins $25k jackpot
Seed is $4k
Affiliate contributes their % of each progressive wager for all cases

Case 1:
Player cashes out $25K
Affiliate is limited to having ANW reduced by an amount up to the seed amount so ANW is reduced by -4K

Case 2:
Player cashes out $22K and loses the remaining 3K
Affiliate gets ANW reduced by seed amount (4K) but then increased by 3K on payout completion (10% or below) for a net ANW of -1K

Case 3:
Player cashes out $10K and loses the remaining 15K
Affiliate gets ANW reduced by seed amount (4K) but then increased by 15K on payout completion (10% or below) for a net ANW of +11K

Case 4 :
Player loses the entire 25K
Affiliate gets ANW reduced by seed amount (4K) but then increased by 25K on payout completion (10% or below) for a net ANW of +21K

Case 5:
Player loses 10k of the 25K, he doesn't cash out
Affiliate does not have any ANW adjustment

Case 6:

Player loses 5k, cashes out 10k and has balance of $10k
Affiliate gets ANW reduced by seed amount (4k) but then increased by 10k for a net ANW of +6k

Regards,

Jaxon

Jet Set Marketing - Affiliate Manager
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