Rivalwide Progressive Issue - Rogue Poll.

[Vladi]

1st I LOL at the 400 Affiliates banner ad at the top of this page.

Secondly, you could do a better job explaining what this is all about:

RE: 400 Affiliates Earnings Calculations Change
Summary: This change was not sent out as notification to their affiliate partners and appears to be done in a very 'odd' manner (i.e., at the end of the month).

400 Affiliates are the ONLY program to do this (Rival program) and they implemented this without regards to their partners (consultation or otherwise)

I had to go and find another thread to work out what exactly the problem is. Perhaps you could update the original post with a concise explanation like "400 Affiliates have started deducting progressive contributions on each dollar wagered from affiliate commissions" or something and maybe a link to the original thread?

Also the 3 examples you give would be clearer if you compared the same numbers - i.e. deposits $5000 - show commission without progressive play and then show commission change if player plays progressives. Otherwise none of the examples are directly comparable.

All in all it doesn't sound good to me. Changes like this don't happen by accident.

[thisisvegasLina]

I am the AM for This is Vegas, part of the 400affiliates group. I would like to point out that this doesn't seem to be restricted just to Rival software. I have an affiliate that is asking right now all of his programs so we can find out some more. I've been told some of them have already replied saying they don't have a clue while others have replied stating that contributions are deducted from affiliate earnings. These are from a respected Microgaming and RealtimeGaming casino group.

As soon as I get more information I will let you know.

Lina Jonsson

[dendrite]

Intertops used to take a "progressive contribution" every month from me when I promoted them, but that was a couple of years ago

When combined with their basic 20% commission, the jackpot contribution made the 'basic' commission very very low. The result (for me) was that they simply were not worth promoting

I don't know if they still do this, since they moved from MG to RTG...?

[Guard Dog]

I am the AM for This is Vegas, part of the 400affiliates group. I would like to point out that this doesn't seem to be restricted just to Rival software. I have an affiliate that is asking right now all of his programs so we can find out some more. I've been told some of them have already replied saying they don't have a clue while others have replied stating that contributions are deducted from affiliate earnings. These are from a respected Microgaming and RealtimeGaming casino group.

As soon as I get more information I will let you know.

Lina Jonsson

Hi Lina,

The problem here is twofold (IMO:

1. The commissions calculation now being enforced is retroactive and was not even communicated to affiliates prior to it's enactment.

2. The progressive calculation appears to be on 'wagering', which can then well-overrun deposit amounts for other players. (Meaning: The negative amount applied to the affiliate's account can be many times higher than the deposit amount from the same player)

[Steve S]

Thisisvegaslina:

Thank you for your contribution to this thread. If you can, would you please name those programs charging affiliates for contributions to progressive jackpot pools? The lack of significant participation in on this topic by the affiliate programs is disheartening. We are your business partners and we deserve answers!

It is issues such as these and the virtual solid wall of silence on the behalf of the affiliate programs that has affiliates thinking that there were members of some of the affiliate programs on the grassy knoll in Dallas the day the Kennedy was shot and still others carted away the UFO wreckage and alien bodies from Roswell, New Mexico.

In any successful relationship, business or otherwise, trust is a fundamental building block upon which the relationship is based. Remove it, and more often than not the relationship begins to deteriorate and crumble. We were led to believe that we would be paid a certain percentage of player losses and we are not. Now when this is discovered, the affiliate programs have no clear answers nor proposed solution to repair this damaged relationship nor make we the affiliates "whole" - to restore to us what was taken away in violation of our agreement. Pretty disgusting.

I run a small business full-time not associated with the gaming industry. Many other affiliates either do the same or are employed in the "real" business world. I cannot speak for others, but, if this same situation had occurred in the "real world" my reaction would have been one of "what the hell is going on here?" and then once I found out the details "you sneaky fxxxing bastard!" I do not care if you hid these conditions in the fine print, you know this is not in the spirit of our agreement, you know this is not what I signed up for!" and then I would look for another customer, vendor, competitor to take their place.

I know there will be those that will say that I should always check the fine print, yada, yada, yada. And they are correct. However, it is hard enough to make a living in today's world as it is. I do not have time to constantly check that everyone I deal with is living up to their end of the bargain we struck. Furthermore, if you are the kind of person to screw me with fine print and technicalities, then I really do not have a place for you in my life, business or otherwise.

My point with this is that we, as affiliates, come from different backgrounds to be sure. However, we understand things like profit margins, the need to cover fixed and variable operating costs and the risks of loss. We signed up to be paid an agreed upon percentage of player losses. If the affiliate programs and the casinos the represent, really believe that charging us for contributions to progressive jackpot pools is necessary and fair, then explain it to us. We can understand. We should not have to find out about this practice in this manner. We are your partners and we deserve better.

[Peter-Jan]

My analysis: A real revshare includes sharing in cost (and revenue) of progressives, at the same % as your revhare deal.

Key question IMO: How big (in % of wagers) are total progressives being paid out?

If affiliates are charged 2% of wagers for progressives than progressives paid out better be 2% / (weighted average revshare commission % across affiliate base), i.e. somewhere around 4-5% I guess?

In other words, if progressives = 2% of wagers and affiliates pay the entire bill, this is not in line with the revshare agreements we have a very big issue.

Secondary issue: If all affiliates are all charged the same % (regardless of whether this is 100% or the fair overall %), than small affiliates are subsidizing the big affiliates because they pay this fee based on wagers but earn less revshare per wager.

Rating advice:
- Not being warned about changes = Retro-active T&C change
- Keeping this term = Predatory T&C
- Not being warned + keeping = ROGUE

[KasinoKing]

I'm not really bothered, as long as they treat their players fairly.
What percentage of players play progressives anyway? I know I don't!

Their bonuses are mostly crap anyway - surprised they even have any players!
Especially ThisIsn'tVegas - total waste of web-space!

KK

[JSM_Jaxon]

Hi everyone,

Sorry for the delayed response as I was waiting for a lot of info and discussion to take place prior to making my initial statement.

I would like to start by saying that this is not a 400affiliates specific issue and that ALL white label Rival casinos are processed and supported by the same Rival group that we are. All calculations and procedure implementation is controlled by Rival. Individual programs are all different and handle their customers and affiliates differently (management), but the support and processing is all the same. ALL White Labels use the same payout table for Affiliate Commissions, which is minused progressive adjustments. Regal/Superior are incorrect in saying they do not do this. This has been confirmed by a source within Rival. Although the programs have a way to change the settings in regards to progressive deductions, I have been informed that none of the other programs have changed these settings. At current, we are in discussions with Rival to implement a system to allow operators to change the setting on a mass scale and not the current individual manual “override” that it requires currently.

The adjustment to the ANW calculation has been the same since the introduction of progressives and this is NOT a retroactive change. As you all know, progressive slots are funded by a percentage of wagers made to the jackpot. It is the same for online casinos as it is for land based casinos. Affiliate commissions have always been based on ANW (adjusted net worth) of a player multiplied by the affiliates revenue share percentage. When Rival introduced progressives, the calculation was amended to include progressive deductions as part of the ANW (dep – chargebacks –cashouts – Progressive adjustments). As previously stated, the progressive adjustment is a percentage (5-7%) of all wagers that are made to the slot. This adjustment is a deduction that BOTH the casino and affiliate SHARE based on the affiliates rev-share.

Casinos and their affiliates are partners and we incur the same effects from all situations, whether good or bad. Our affiliates essentially have a 35% stake in the casinos and in the “real world”, when you are partners with someone and have a stake in the company, you would incur a percentage of the fees and operating cost based on your stake just as you earn profits. When progressive were introduced from Rival, the braintrust behind the scenes was looking at the “big picture” and what is appealing to what our casinos/affiliates thrive upon; our players. Players like to play progressives due to the nature of the jackpots and if the progressives bring in more traffic to your site/our casinos, then that is a positive thing. Another important thing to note is that these contributions to the pot that have been deducted from both of us, benefit neither the casino nor Rival monetarily. These are contributions that go directly to the player and no one ever sees any benefit from these contributions but them.

This particular thread about whether to rogue 400Affiliates alone was based on incorrect facts. It is important to note that we are NOT the only group within Rival to share progressive deductions with our partners. How could we be when Rival is the governing body for invoicing and payments that all white labels subscribe to? This a deduction that affects all Rival based casinos and I would urge you to ask questions to other software providers and casinos as well. There are other very reputable casino groups that have identical deductions to what we currently have with no mention anywhere at all about affiliates paying progressive deductions -- some of these casinos have gained accreditation on some affiliate sites with very stringent admission policies in place.

All this is to say, we are on your side as your partners and we (our casino management and affiliate teams) are collaboratively working with other Rival casino operators and Rival to make sure that the progressive/affiliate structure is one that is pleasing to both affiliates and casino. Rival is a very accommodating bunch so we’re sure we’ll have something more to tell you shortly. We will continue to sort through all of the concerns and disagreements that have been put forth to find a solution that will satisfy our affiliates.

Regards,

Jaxon

[Peter-Jan]

In principle yes I agree that it makes sense that affs pay their % on progressives. (Maybe better start calling it gross profitshare though.) You need monthly contributions for that as progressive wins are so big that A. With negative carry over affs would close their accounts and B. Without neg carry over this would be a huge financial risk added for the programs. So far so good.

That said, for each individual affiliate the deductions are (% of progressive contributions) * (HIS/HER revshare) right? Or do all affiliates, regardless of their rev share deal, pay the same % contribution (namely the average)?

Do other software vendors have this progressive deductions too? Because now that we're on the topic we might as well address the low player value Rival generates (so I read and hear everywhere)...

[inspiration]

Thanks for the update Mr.Jaxon really appreciated. I always get a quick reply and support by 400 affiliates, kudos to that !

Got payment on 9th that is fast too.

When I select the commission report progress. adj. have always been there

'Real Players' : Players that made their first deposit during the report period.
'All Players': The total of all players that have signed up for Fun or Real accounts during the report period.
Click on any of the highlighted column titles to see the values displayed in a chart.
Click on a campaign name to get campaign and banner details.
Click on any player count to get a Player Summary for that campaign.
'ANW': Deposits - Cashouts - Chargebacks - Progressive Adjustments.

Ofcourse it is something I would like to be more fair especially when players who play progressives deposit small amounts but costing us a fortune.

BTW 400aff is a not a rogue program IMO.